Silent Angel Bonn N8 Audio Grade Ethernet Switch

[Murmon]

Подробности Дания, а не Китай. Ларс давно работает часами и знает свое дело.

Translation: Details Denmark, not China. Lars has been working for hours for a long time and knows his job.

 

[Jinjuku]

Certainly. Analog sound, detail and silence. All this is the best!

I have to ask: Do you have any idea of how packet data actually works?

 

[sq225917]

Jinjuku, is that a rhetorical question?

 

[Killingbeans]

Certainly. Analog sound, detail and silence. All this is the best!

You get analog sound from the output of a DAC not ethernet switches? In best case (hypothetically... assuming it bleeds through ground loops or something with equally low likelihood of happening) you'll get a lower noise floor. Not something that's specifically "analog" or "digital".

Yes, right. Try it, all this is possible and not as expensive as silent angel, bonn n8 ....

Look at the first post in this thread. The Silent Angel Bonn N8 does nothing you won't get from a cheap "non-audiophile" switch. Don't take this as an attempt to belittle your experience, but there's a very high risk that it's caused by placebo.

 

[tvrgeek]

Oh, but was your switch cryogenically treated with directional connectors and pure silver litz power cord?

Now on to reality. If you are streaming high def, and have lots of things hanging off a hub, you might do better with a switch.
Do not confuse a managed switch with a hub. A managed Netgear switch will set you back $100.

 

[mansr]

Now on to reality. If you are streaming high def, and have lots of things hanging off a hub, you might do better with a switch.

No such thing as a hub any more. Haven't seen one since the 90s. Anything supporting 100 Mbps or higher is a switch.

 

[Murmon]

Do you have any idea of how packet data actually works?

The Silent Angel Bonn N8 does nothing you won't get from a cheap "non-audiophile" switch

Thanks everyone for the questions!
No idea. I am a music lover and I listen with my ears.

 

[Murmon]

All this is interesting for those who listen to network streamers.
I listen to Tidal and use the LMS server.
To repeat my work, you will not have a lot of costs.
Start small and then you can refute my arguments. Just a big request, don't buy Chinese crafts. I do not accept this comparison.
Then you can move on to the more expensive option. This will depend on the system. Lars has more expensive watches for sale.

 

[Killingbeans]

No idea. I am a music lover and I listen with my ears.

Have a look around this forum. There's lots and lots of threads you can read that will help you understand why sighted uncontrolled listening tests aren't reliable for making assessments about whether or not audio gear has sonic signatures. Sometimes it's caused by actual sound, but often you get false positives and/or negatives as a result of perceptual bias. We are all susceptible to that, unfortunately. You can't just will it away.

Seriously, read the OP of this thread and reflect on the implications. I really don't understand why you haven't done that to begin with.

Start small and then you can refute my arguments.

It has already been refuted countless times on this forum. There's absolutely zero reason why upgrading the clock or the voltage regulation in a ethernet switch would have and influence on the final analog output. Read a bit around. There's a huge amount of people with knowledge of network communication in here, and you'll find that every single time one of them has participated in this particular discussion, they've made bulletproof arguments pointing to the fact that ethernet switches does litterally nothing that can affect the sound of your audio system.

"Try it! And you'll see!" is the #1 tool in any snake-oil vendor's box. Expectation bias is a powerful thing.

Not to rain on your parade, but nobody here on ASR will see this project as anything but a complete waste of time.

 

[Honken]

A lot of streaming protocols use TCP, which means "packet" is not really that important as it's transferred as a byte stream and TCP will take care of re-ordering packets and re-transmit dropped or delayed packets. TCP is most definitely not real-time.

I think it should also be noted, at least once, in this thread that this explanation isn't exactly correct either, or at least not the whole truth.

You are not transmitting audio directly over TCP/IP when you are streaming from the mainstream streaming services. There are multiple layers of translation and buffering between the stream your device receives, and what it sends to the DAC. And you are not necessarily using TCP either, it's quite possible that your streaming service supports HTTP/3 for example.

Actually, what has been discussed in this thread actually resemble RTP, which funnily enough uses UDP for transport. But even in RTP there are built in facilities to compensate for jitter, out of order packets and the loss of packets.

There are other ways of streaming audio over ethernet for professional settings, and while I haven't worked with any that are relevant today I wouldn't assume that they rely on the timing and packet order for their clocks either. That'd be silly.

 

[Jinjuku]

Actually, what has been discussed in this thread actually resemble RTP, which funnily enough uses UDP for transport. But even in RTP there are built in facilities to compensate for jitter, out of order packets and the loss of packets.

As a developer you can either rely on TCP's error detect/correction or you can use UDP and rely on it's error detection and write your own correction.

 

[Honken]

As a developer you can either rely on TCP's error detect/correction or you can use UDP and rely on it's error detection and write your own correction.

I stand corrected, thanks.

 

[radix]

@Honken and @Jinjuku, I think what we agree on is that any network-level transport used today is highly isolated from individual packet or bit jitter. It could be TCP, STCP, UDP, QUIC, etc., at the transport layer. Network streamers do not use real-time digital audio techniques and the packet payloads, as pointed out, could be highly encoded and processed from digital audio. This is why, I think, many (most?) of us in this thread are incredulous that clock and voltage regulation changes to an Ethernet switch will make any audible difference.

There are real-time layer-2 protocols, even some that work over enhanced Ethernet. There are some truly remarkably low-latency layer-2 link layers too used in high-performance compute (think super computers). But none of that is necessary for network streaming.

@Murmon has provided one concrete example of upgrading a Zyxel GS-108B v3 switch with a new clock and a new voltage regulator. I've looked at "newclassd" website, and cannot say I'm impressed with those parts. A +/-1 ppm clock is not cutting edge. There are 10 ppb (i.e. 2 orders of magnitude better) OXCO clocks available for less than that part from newclassd. And the vreg looks like a 75xx plus some filter caps. Anyway, there is a specific straw man put out. I'd suggest that if @Murmon could send Amir that switch to compare against an unmodified one (which only cost $35 or so), we could see if there's anything audibly different.

 

[Jinjuku]

@Murmon has provided one concrete example of upgrading a Zyxel GS-108B v3 switch with a new clock and a new voltage regulator.

An example of what exactly? If I post you a video of me spinning a plate in the middle of the kitchen floor what have I actually accomplished?

It still doesn't obviate the fact that modern network hardware will take advantage of as much line rate as it can get.

I have a 10GBe setup and get 800MB/s between my Dell R620 server and HP Z420 workstation. I can literally with JRiver que up an entire 16/44.1, hour long album in less than 1 second.

What is a hacked clock or voltage regulator going to do for the next 59M and 59s?

 

[radix]

An example of what exactly? If I post you a video of me spinning a plate in the middle of the kitchen floor what have I actually accomplished?

He provided an example of a switch he changed that he believes makes the transported audio sound better. It's an experiment someone could do, but with measurements or principled listening tests.

I agree with you that there does not seem to be any likely mechanism by which these hardware changes would make a difference. Everything is buffered and there should be no correlation between the tiny (if any) differences the clock and vreg should make. The bandwidth consumed by streaming audio is so tiny compared to 1G or 10G bandwidth and delays that it does not make sense.

It's likely a no-win situation. One could say there's no mechanism and it doesn't really do anything, or one could measure the packet statistics, or one could measure the resultant audio, but in the end someone can always claim "my ears tell me different and you aren't measuring it what I hear." I was hoping that murmon could send in the switch for measurements.

Perhaps another approach, like Amir took with power conditions, is to use NetEm to emulate a really crappy home network with high jitter or packet drop or corruption, and show that a streaming protocol (e.g. Roon or Airplay) is impervious to these things. It's really easy to setup a linux host with two network interfaces as a transparent bridge with settable jitter, delay, and drop rates.

 

[Jinjuku]

Perhaps another approach, like Amir took with power conditions, is to use NetEm to emulate a really crappy home network with high jitter or packet drop or corruption, and show that a streaming protocol (e.g. Roon or Airplay) is impervious to these things. It's really easy to setup a linux host with two network interfaces as a transparent bridge with settable jitter, delay, and drop rates.

Or use iPerf. But what good does it do to simulate conditions that normally don't exist?

 

[Murmon]

I have a second such switch in its standard form. Compared in two systems. Many people want charts, numbers. What for? Do you have a calculator in your head? Listen to the music. I will definitely not send Amir. I can hear the difference for the better and that's enough for me! With regards to the details from newclassd, why does the inaccuracy necessarily decide the quality of the output? There is a more expensive option with temperature maintenance Neutron Star 3. Neutrino is enough for me. Try, and do not disassemble what you have not heard.
$ 200 my version completely & Silent Angel Bonn N8...

 

[Killingbeans]

Many people want charts, numbers. What for?

For verification of your claim.

I can hear the difference for the better and that's enough for me!

Fine, I can respect it if you simply don't care whether the experience comes form placebo or not, as long as you just get the experience. But why encourage other users to experiment like that? Most people in here are perfectly aware of the power perceptual bias holds. Why not just tell them to take pebbles from their driveway and put them on top of their audio gear, telling themselves that these small rocks has magical sound enhancing powers? It would be an even cheaper way of exploring the phenomenon.

 

[evam1]

I respect any of your views on the bonn n8 and the like, but tonight in a comparative listening of the bonn n8 with a cheap tp link of € 35, the difference was huge in favor of the bonn n8. With better sound of course...

 

[tw99]

I respect any of your views on the bonn n8 and the like, but tonight in a comparative listening of the bonn n8 with a cheap tp link of € 35, the difference was huge in favor of the bonn n8. With better sound of course...

I’ll wager this wasn’t a controlled blind test…