Sigberg Audio Saranna (fullrange, cardioid active floorstander) development thread

[sigbergaudio]

Interesting ... and thank you! So, why do you think most (if not all) full range speakers are designed the traditional way (with front woofers and ports)? The front facing design was definitely full-range as the measurements showed.

I don't know? Why are almost no speakers cardioid? Why don't most speakers use coaxial?

Most speakers aren't designed to be placed close to a boundary either (another strange thing), and then the point of putting the woofers in the back partially goes away.

I can only speak of why I do what I do, not why others do or don't do things.

 

[David_M]

I don't know? Why are almost no speakers cardioid? Why don't most speakers use coaxial?

Most speakers aren't designed to be placed close to a boundary either (another strange thing), and then the point of putting the woofers in the back partially goes away.

I can only speak of why I do what I do, not why others do or don't do things.

Fair enough ... I was just curious why the industry has followed one design mode from the very beginning, almost as it it was the only way of designing a speaker. I guess, as typical of human beings, we are good followers of trends without explicitly or asking knowing why.

After looking at the links you posted earlier, would you describe the Saranna (and possibly Mantra) as electrically accurate due to their low measured distortion (THD well under 1% across the full frequency at relatively high SPL levels) and acoustically accurate (with close to ideal horizontal/vertical dispersion characteristics?) due to their cardioid design, which cancel side and rear-wall reflections ending up with a properly centered acoustic image, based on the reviews I've seen?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Fair enough ... I was just curious why the industry has followed one design mode from the very beginning, almost as it it was the only way of designing a speaker. I guess, as typical of human beings, we are good followers of trends without explicitly or asking knowing why.

From a pure aesthetical perspective I would assume most speaker manufacturers would like to show off their drivers, and it would make sense to have them all pointing at the listener. Depending on where the crossover is, having them at the back may not be a good solution either. A typical, classical 3-way speaker would have the crossover from the woofer to the midrange at maybe 450hz. Then having the woofers in the rear start to become problematic.

In this design the midrange driver is unusually large and unusually powerful, so I can get away with a much lower crossover point.

After looking at the links you posted earlier, would you describe the Saranna (and possibly Mantra) as electrically accurate due to their low measured distortion (THD well under 1% across the full frequency at relatively high SPL levels) and acoustically accurate (with close to ideal horizontal/vertical dispersion characteristics?) due to their cardioid design, which cancel side and rear-wall reflections ending up with a properly centered acoustic image, based on the reviews I've seen?

Not sure exactly what you are asking here / what you mean by electrically accurate. The THD provided is an acoustical measurement of the actual reproduction from the speaker, not the THD level of the internal amplifiers (those are much lower of course).

What low distortion implies in practice is that they don’t add audible artifacts, even at very high playback levels. The controlled directivity / dispersion characteristics helps the speakers behave predictably and sound correct in normal rooms (including a stable center / precise imaging), without problematic reflections and off-axis information

So rather than thinking in terms of “electrical” vs “acoustic” accuracy, in practical terms it's perhaps more precise to say they will translate the input signal into sound as faithfully and consistently as possible in real listening spaces.

 

[David_M]

From a pure aesthetical perspective I would assume most speaker manufacturers would like to show off their drivers, and it would make sense to have them all pointing at the listener. Depending on where the crossover is, having them at the back may not be a good solution either. A typical, classical 3-way speaker would have the crossover from the woofer to the midrange at maybe 450hz. Then having the woofers in the rear start to become problematic.

In this design the midrange driver is unusually large and unusually powerful, so I can get away with a much lower crossover point.



Not sure exactly what you are asking here / what you mean by electrically accurate. The THD provided is an acoustical measurement of the actual reproduction from the speaker, not the THD level of the internal amplifiers (those are much lower of course).

What low distortion implies in practice is that they don’t add audible artifacts, even at very high playback levels. The controlled directivity / dispersion characteristics helps the speakers behave predictably and sound correct in normal rooms (including a stable center / precise imaging), without problematic reflections and off-axis information

So rather than thinking in terms of “electrical” vs “acoustic” accuracy, in practical terms it's perhaps more precise to say they will translate the input signal into sound as faithfully and consistently as possible in real listening spaces.

That makes sense, and thanks for the corrections!

 

[MKR]

Really nice explanations here @sigbergaudio, I have always really appreciated and admired your transparency and pragmatism.

 

[kharan]

Got served a Saranna review, apparently he's also reviewed the D&D 8C and the Kii Three before.

Will watch when/if I have time.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Yes, that is review is an interesting one, since he has already reviewed the Kii and the 8C, and will review the Grimms next.

 

[David_M]

Would you consider making passive versions of the Siranna and Manta? If so, what would be the approximate price range?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Would you consider making passive versions of the Siranna and Manta? If so, what would be the approximate price range?

No, we do not make passive speakers.

 

[sigbergaudio]

My background is originally in digital product development, and as such I'm very used to continuous improvement. That is of course a bit harder with physical products, and at the same time it's impossible to get everything 100% right the first time. So while we also do more generational shifts (like the G2 version of Inkognito and SBS), there have been small adjustments along the way to all the products.

Now the time has come for the first small adjustment for the Saranna. They ship with feet that absorb vibrations / decouple the speakers from the floor. They actually reduce an average of 84% of all vibrations between 20-200hz. Pretty neat! But that absorption material has very high friction, so it's hard to move the speakers around with the feet installed, and you risk damaging the mounts if you push them around too much.

So a new iteration of the feet has been designed, now with a double layer. The same decoupling layer as before, but now a second section has been added with a very smooth surface against the floor. This makes it quite easy to slide the speaker around when experimenting with placement, both on smooth floors and carpets. The slit/opening between the sections allows the material to compress when it gets weight on it. So that opening between the two sections almost disappear when they're under the speaker. Pretty cool!

 

[Salt]

?

 

[sigbergaudio]

?

What?

 

[Salt]

Some furniture felt sliders would do the job, not?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Some furniture felt sliders would do the job, not?

Sure, but not as easy for the customer to go and purchase that as if this was just working with the included feet.

 

[Salt]

Sure, but not as easy for the customer to go and purchase that as if this was just working with the included feet.

So, yes,

 

[sigbergaudio]

So, yes,

Furniture sliders will make it easy to move yes. They will not decouple the speaker in the same way.

 

[David_M]

Change of topic, if you don't mind @sigbergaudio, since you are the ASR's loudspeaker guru

Regarding Tower speakers with multiple woofers, why doesn't the number of woofers equate to lower extended bass? I know the efficiency would be better with more woofers and probably be able to handle higher SPL levels.

I would assume a tower with four 8" woofers would have significantly lower F3 than one with three 8" woofers, assuming all else is equal?

 

[ryanosaur]

Change of topic, if you don't mind @sigbergaudio, since you are the ASR's loudspeaker guru

Regarding Tower speakers with multiple woofers, why doesn't the number of woofers equate to lower extended bass? I know the efficiency would be better with more woofers and probably be able to handle higher SPL levels.

I would assume a tower with four 8" woofers would have significantly lower F3 than one with three 8" woofers, assuming all else is equal?

The simplistic version:
The resonance of the driver (Fs) is a fixed mechanical value. Adding woofers does not change this like the way electrical values will change.

 

[sigbergaudio]

The simplistic version:
The resonance of the driver (Fs) is a fixed mechanical value. Adding woofers does not change this like the way electrical values will change.

Actually this is not quite true. Or, technically that is true. But @David_M, the F3 of a driver in a box depends on the size of the box.

The larger the box, the lower the F3.
The smaller the box, the higher the F3.

So if you put two drivers in a box, they only get half the volume each compared to if that same box had only one driver. So adding more woofers to a tower speaker actually increases the F3. If you want to add a second driver and keep the F3, you have to double the size of the box.

This is one of the inherent benefits of active speakers, we can use DSP (within reason) to trick physics, and increase the bass level, enjoying low F3 even in small enclosures. The trade-off is that it requires lots of power, and taken to extremes it may result in thermal issues.

Since we're in the Saranna thread, I can also mention that this has actually not been done here despite it being active. The combination of drivers, enclosure and port results in a natural low tuning without the help of DSP.

 

[David_M]

Actually this is not quite true. Or, technically that is true. But @David_M, the F3 of a driver in a box depends on the size of the box.

The larger the box, the lower the F3.
The smaller the box, the higher the F3.

So if you put two drivers in a box, they only get half the volume each compared to if that same box had only one driver. So adding more woofers to a tower speaker actually increases the F3. If you want to add a second driver and keep the F3, you have to double the size of the box.

This is one of the inherent benefits of active speakers, we can use DSP (within reason) to trick physics, and increase the bass level, enjoying low F3 even in small enclosures. The trade-off is that it requires lots of power, and taken to extremes it may result in thermal issues.

Since we're in the Saranna thread, I can also mention that this has actually not been done here despite it being active. The combination of drivers, enclosure and port results in a natural low tuning without the help of DSP.

Thanks for the answer ... but can you explain what you meant by the bolded statement? Both drivers are in the same box within the same volume, so how can each only experience half the volume.