Sigberg Audio Saranna (fullrange, cardioid active floorstander) development thread

[Sigberg Audio]

A picture of the Sarannas without the base, since as mentioned it is optional. So an alternative for those who like that look better. So here the feet is attached directly to the speakers instead of to the base/plinth.

 

[Grimoire]

A picture of the Sarannas without the base, since as mentioned it is optional. So an alternative for those who like that look better. So here the feet is attached directly to the speakers instead of to the base/plinth.

View attachment 467036

All of this subjective and aesthetic stuff begs the question of when you are going to send one to amirm for testing.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

All of this subjective and aesthetic stuff begs the question of when you are going to send one to amirm for testing.

There is currently no plan to do that, and I'm not even sure he accepts speakers this big these days. That being said, there are several reviews in the works, and at least one of them will be with measurements if everything goes according to plan.

I also have shared a number of measurements in the thread, are there any specific aspects of the objective data you are curious about?

 

[Grimoire]

There is currently no plan to do that, and I'm not even sure he accepts speakers this big these days. That being said, there are several reviews in the works, and at least one of them will be with measurements if everything goes according to plan.

I also have shared a number of measurements in the thread, are there any specific aspects of the objective data you are curious about?

It's always good to have independent measurements, especially as you haven't been able to do full measurements yourself.

 

[David_M]

I feel very embarrassed by asking this question, but those of us unfamiliar with the unique characteristics of your speaker designs, can you tell us what a cardioid(?) pattern is and why you would want a speaker to exhibit that pattern? If you can point to a tutorial in this thread or forum, that would be great, so as not to clutter your thread with material discussed previously ad nauseam. Thanks!

 

[Sigberg Audio]

I feel very embarrassed by asking this question, but those of us unfamiliar with the unique characteristics of your speaker designs, can you tell us what a cardioid(?) pattern is and why you would want a speaker to exhibit that pattern? If you can point to a tutorial in this thread or forum, that would be great, so as not to clutter your thread with material discussed previously ad nauseam. Thanks!

No need to feel embarassed. I am sure there are others who aren't perfectly clear on the concept, so it's perfectly fine to have this discussion in the thread.

The super short answer is that this reduces the acoustic interaction between the speakers and the room. You get a cleaner sound and a higher percentage of direct sound from the speaker, as opposed to reflections from the surfaces in your room. It sounds better both in poorly treated / reflective rooms, in normal rooms and in really well treated and damped rooms.

We actually made a 90 second video to try to explain this in simple terms:

This video uses our Manta speakers as an example, but the effect and concept is the same for the Saranna.


The design article for the Manta also explains a bit more, if you don't want to read it all, there are two sections calle "Cardioid: Why" and "Cardioid: How" towards the middle of the article:

Designing a cardioid loudspeaker: The Manta

The Manta is a special speaker in many ways. Why did we make it, and what is the reason for its peculiar design? Learn about cardioid, where the name comes from - and most importantly, how did it turn out in the end?

www.sigbergaudio.com

Feel free to ask follow up questions if something is still unclear after checking out the video and the article.

 

[dualazmak]

Hello @sigbergaudio,
Your short and simple YouTube video clip is really nice and impressive, especially the hand-drawn illustration portions of "sound stage/image"!

Just for your possible interest and reference, I too took a little bit of efforts on preparation of the similar illustrations of "sound stage/image" as shared here #927 and here #926 on my project thread.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Hello @sigbergaudio,
Your short and simple YouTube video clip is really nice and impressive, especially the hand-drawn illustration portions of "sound stage/image"!

Just for your possible interest and reference, I too took a little bit of efforts on preparation of the similar illustrations of "sound stage/image" as shared here #927 and here #926 on my project thread.

Thank you, yes, those are good illustrations as well.

 

[David_M]

No need to feel embarassed. I am sure there are others who aren't perfectly clear on the concept, so it's perfectly fine to have this discussion in the thread.

The super short answer is that this reduces the acoustic interaction between the speakers and the room. You get a cleaner sound and a higher percentage of direct sound from the speaker, as opposed to reflections from the surfaces in your room. It sounds better both in poorly treated / reflective rooms, in normal rooms and in really well treated and damped rooms.

We actually made a 90 second video to try to explain this in simple terms:

This video uses our Manta speakers as an example, but the effect and concept is the same for the Saranna.


The design article for the Manta also explains a bit more, if you don't want to read it all, there are two sections calle "Cardioid: Why" and "Cardioid: How" towards the middle of the article:

Designing a cardioid loudspeaker: The Manta

The Manta is a special speaker in many ways. Why did we make it, and what is the reason for its peculiar design? Learn about cardioid, where the name comes from - and most importantly, how did it turn out in the end?

www.sigbergaudio.com

Feel free to ask follow up questions if something is still unclear after checking out the video and the article.

Interesting concept. Direct as much sound as possible to the listener, on axis, while minimizing reflected sound energy?
The side slots cancel/attenuate sound before it reaches the side walls, right?

 

[Grimoire]

Interesting concept. Direct as much sound as possible to the listener, on axis, while minimizing reflected sound energy?
The side slots cancel/attenuate sound before it reaches the side walls, right?

And the front wall.

 

[TurtlePaul]

The side slots cancel/attenuate sound before it reaches the side walls, right?

If you look at a cardioid shape, it is much much more about the power going backwards than at an angle to the side.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Interesting concept. Direct as much sound as possible to the listener, on axis, while minimizing reflected sound energy?
The side slots cancel/attenuate sound before it reaches the side walls, right?

on axis is a bit misleading, it's easy to assume it has a narrow listening area, but that is not the case. The cardioid effect doesn't really start until beyond 90 degrees. So in the front it's like a normal speaker, but you get less reflections from the side wall and the wall behind the speaker, so less reflections to interfer with and distort the direct sound.

The reflections from the wall behind the speaker also often creates dips in the bass and midbass, this is a also happening to a lesser degree, meaning you get punchier sound as well.

 

[David_M]

on axis is a bit misleading, it's easy to assume it has a narrow listening area, but that is not the case. The cardioid effect doesn't really start until beyond 90 degrees. So in the front it's like a normal speaker, but you get less reflections from the side wall and the wall behind the speaker, so less reflections to interfer with and distort the direct sound.

The reflections from the wall behind the speaker also often creates dips in the bass and midbass, this is a also happening to a lesser degree, meaning you get punchier sound as well.

Cool ...thanks for the clarification. My concern with sound-shaping concept is that it doesn't occur in real life, When a musician is standing in front of an audience, singing or playing an instrument in real-time, the sounds is dispersed everywhere. Direct front, reflection from the sides, ceiling, floors and backwalls. These enveloping sounds create the total sound picture that we hear and enjoy. So, why sound-shape at all ?

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Cool ...thanks for the clarification. My concern with sound-shaping concept is that it doesn't occur in real life, When a musician is standing in front of an audience, singing or playing an instrument in real-time, the sounds is dispersed everywhere. Direct front, reflection from the sides, ceiling, floors and backwalls. These enveloping sounds create the total sound picture that we hear and enjoy. So, why sound-shape at all ?

Well, depending on the record, that room information (the sound of the reflections happening from all the instruments throughout the recording space) is present on the recording. Either from a live recording, or often created artificially in the studio. And the less you add to that from your own room, the better that illusion comes through from the actual recording.

So while it might seem counterintuitive, this type of design actually creates a huge soundstage and very immersive sound, when the recording permits.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

@David_M I And to be clear, I love a huge soundstage myself. Which is in part why I am so intrigued with cardioid designs. Subjective and biased of course, but I've never heard a better and more immersive soundstage than what the Manta and Saranna portrays.

 

[Grimoire]

Cool ...thanks for the clarification. My concern with sound-shaping concept is that it doesn't occur in real life, When a musician is standing in front of an audience, singing or playing an instrument in real-time, the sounds is dispersed everywhere. Direct front, reflection from the sides, ceiling, floors and backwalls. These enveloping sounds create the total sound picture that we hear and enjoy. So, why sound-shape at all ?

A recording may capture the result of a musician playing in front of an audience in the particular auditorium, but if you want to hear that faithfully reproduced you need to minimalise the sound of your own room, otherwise you are superimposing the acoustic of your room onto that of the recording.

 

[David_M]

Well, depending on the record, that room information (the sound of the reflections happening from all the instruments throughout the recording space) is present on the recording. Either from a live recording, or often created artificially in the studio. And the less you add to that from your own room, the better that illusion comes through from the actual recording.

So while it might seem counterintuitive, this type of design actually creates a huge soundstage and very immersive sound, when the recording permits.

Good point and thanks for the clarification...so if I understand you correctly, is it correct to infer that multi-channel music (or movie) recordings and playback are not necessary since the complete original sound envelope can be captured in 2 channel format and played back on speakers with a cardioid radiation pattern?

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Good point and thanks for the clarification...so if I understand you correctly, is it correct to infer that multi-channel music (or movie) recordings and playback are not necessary since the complete original sound envelope can be captured in 2 channel format and played back on speakers with a cardioid radiation pattern?

I wouldn't go that far, but the effect can certainly be similar.

But what I said wasn't really that, but rather that the reflections from your own room is detrimental rather than beneficial with regards to soundstage and immersiveness. So it will be better than a traditional 2-channel system.

Comparing it to a multichannel system is a bit more complicated, as we are no longer talking about the same source material (multi channel vs 2-channel). And it is not mutually exclusive either, since you could employ a cardioid speaker in a multi-channel system.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

We started shipping Saranna in July, here's a few pics received from one of those early customers.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

The first review of the Saranna is out, from Norwegian magazine Stereopluss.

An English translation of the article (which is originally in Norwegian) is available here:

Sigberg Saranna - Stereo+

It took three seconds before I started to ponder—could a hi-fi journalist possibly use active loudspeakers in their reference system?

www.stereopluss.no