Ok, the speaker basket looks cool, but the sensitivity is a major flaw if you want to design a good hi-fi speaker. I once pointed this out to a friend from the Visaton forum who was determined that his speaker had to achieve over 120 dB. He used a PHL chassis from France for this purpose. He thought that with high sensitivity, he wouldn’t need much power and would therefore reduce distortion. The problem is that these types of speakers perform poorly at low listening levels — they lack precision. Only when they get a lot of power do they start to sound good. In the end, he commissioned a proper hi-fi speaker, and the result was a design with four 12” woofers with copper in the motor gap that played up to about 200 Hz at the back of the enclosure, and a midbass section made of six 6.5” Wavecor drivers. I don’t remember the tweeter exactly, but I think it was some kind of super high-efficiency horn tweeter. I hope you understand what I mean. I haven’t heard your product, but from what I see, it confirms my theory that one should be very cautious when considering the purchase of such expensive speakers.The above is copied from this thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/understanding-subwoofers.63662/post-2335700 <- I'm answering here to avoid derailing the other thread completely.
@LSPhil - this is the driver you are referring to:
View attachment 458984View attachment 458986
First of all, it is not an 8" driver, it's a 12". And to imply that this is not a "proper" driver is very interesting. Seas has nothing like it. It's a 96dB Sensitivity / 1000W midbass driver that laughs in the face (and rightly so) of pretty much anything found in any commercially available hifi speaker. The Manta delivers 122dB@1m (per speaker). What are you even talking about.
The drivers look like business, because they mean business. If you don't like that form-follows-function look that the Manta is all about, that is an opinion you are of course entitled to. With regards to covering it up, the Manta comes with a grille if one would like to cover up the drivers, resulting in a pretty clean 70s monitor kind of vibe:
View attachment 458985
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Sigberg Audio Manta (12" wideband cardioid active speakers) development thread
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kyuu
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I'm sure you have some data to support this weird assertion that high sensitivity drivers lack "precision", whatever that means, and don't sound good, for some reason, until you feed them a lot of power.
Oh, so now you want a sworn affidavit from a notary? Sure— I’ll check with the chancellor’s office and get right onthat. ?
But seriously:
I understand your point, but it’sactually well-known in loudspeaker design that many high-sensitivityPA drivers are optimized for high output and power handling, not forfine microdynamics or low-level linearity. Their heavier moving mass,stiffer suspensions, and motor structures built for robustness tendto limit precision at low listening levels. That’s why they oftensound a bit lifeless or lacking in detail until driven with morepower. This is not just theory — it’s a common finding both inmeasurements and in practical listening tests.
? Why PA drivers often aren't great forlow-volume listening
- PA drivers are optimized for high output and robustness, not subtlety. At low levels, they tend to sound dull or imprecise because their suspensions and motors are designed to operate best with more power.
- The high moving mass and stiff suspensions mean small signals don’t move the cone as responsively as a driver optimized for hi-fi microdynamics.
- Their motor structures are tuned for thermal and mechanical endurance, not for fine low-level linearity.
? Proof, since you're so worried aboutbeing wrong ?
- DIYAudio users commonly observe:
- Example: The Faital 15FH500 PA driver shows
? What does this mean?
“Precision” means clean reproduction of small signals,microdynamics, room ambience — at low levels.
PA drivers comealive with power — that’s what they’re designed for. But at lowlevels, they simply don't provide the subtlety you want in a hi-fisetting. That’s not a weird theory. It’s basic loudspeakerphysics.
? End of story — unless you want me to actually get thatnotary affidavit? ?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #465
Please don't pollute this thread with ChatGPT drivel.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #466
This is just nonsense. It's precisely the other way around, this driver (and also the 8" coaxial in the Saranna) has an effortless and immediate response beyond most typical hifi drivers. Yes, also at moderate levels.
I have got nothing to hide. So if you see something here that makes you cautious about our products, I highly suggest you either explore further to learn more (I am happy to answer questions) or look elsewhere.
OK, it doesn’t really matter what you think — I know that if I were in your position, with your knowledge, I’d probably claim the same, despite the clear statements from other users.
Another thing: the use of shallow filter slopes is also puzzling to me. But I guess if I had to prove, for example, that Dr. Gauder uses 60 dB/octave filters, you’d probably argue against that too.
That’s why I won’t write anything more — I don’t want to interfere with your business.
And regarding the 120 dB claim: that ScanSpeak of yours can only manage about 110 dB at 100 Hz, and 120 dB maybe once — after that, you’ll need to buy a new driver.
Grimoire
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #470
Yes I would argue against that too.
The 122dB is for the Manta speakers themselves.
With regards to the Scan-speak drivers, a typical / recommended Manta system has dual 10D subwoofers = 4x10" Scan-speak drivers. Some customers have four (8x10" Scan-Speak drivers)
OP
- Thread Starter
- #471
I understand that it can sound logical and feel like it makes a certain kind of sense that if a driver is made to play loud well, it can't play softly well. Except it just isn't so.
The ChatGPT quote above does a good job of sounding like it knows what it's talking about;
"The high moving mass and stiff suspensions mean small signals don’t move the cone as responsively as a driver optimized for hi-fi microdynamics."
Except that the midbass drivers we use don't have high moving mass, on the contrary they have lower moving mass than a typical "hifi driver" equivalent.
"Their motor structures are tuned for thermal and mechanical endurance, not for fine low-level linearity."
Here it makes it out as everybody knows that it is a fact that you can't have both, only that is not true.
What CAN be true for a PA-type driver is that high power handling and thermal handling might be prioritized over linearity. But again this is not true for the midbass drivers we use.
Let me also quote Floyd Toole recently;
"(..)In our loudspeaker evaluations there have been pro monitors and high-end audiophile loudspeakers that end up in statistical ties in terms of sound quality, not sound quantity. A good loudspeaker is a good loudspeaker."
The ChatGPT quote above does a good job of sounding like it knows what it's talking about;
"The high moving mass and stiff suspensions mean small signals don’t move the cone as responsively as a driver optimized for hi-fi microdynamics."
Except that the midbass drivers we use don't have high moving mass, on the contrary they have lower moving mass than a typical "hifi driver" equivalent.
"Their motor structures are tuned for thermal and mechanical endurance, not for fine low-level linearity."
Here it makes it out as everybody knows that it is a fact that you can't have both, only that is not true.
What CAN be true for a PA-type driver is that high power handling and thermal handling might be prioritized over linearity. But again this is not true for the midbass drivers we use.
Let me also quote Floyd Toole recently;
"(..)In our loudspeaker evaluations there have been pro monitors and high-end audiophile loudspeakers that end up in statistical ties in terms of sound quality, not sound quantity. A good loudspeaker is a good loudspeaker."
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Come'on man, stop the silliness. Speakers are designed around a driver's capabilities, it's not complicated from that aspect. If there was another 12" driver that fit the bill, I'm sure it would be considered. You're not a fan, so maybe move on and enjoy some music?
In fact, the speaker enclosures (boxes) are "designed" around a driver's capabilities. It is the driver that produces the sound, not the enclosure or the box. People are being misled into purchasing the carpentry at "funny" prices.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #474
Well, but the enclosure certainly affects the produced sound. So the enclosure design is (hopefully) not random or just for show.
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You can't design the box without the driver's TS parameters, that was my point.
All of my current speakers are high WAF, none of them, however, are designed around the enclosure first.
Again, these speakers aren't your cup of tea for reasons you've stated, so why keep beating a dead horse?
I've done DIY, purchased speakers from corporate stores, and purchased ID, all of which where purchased for their sound first and foremost, I've just been lucky that most of my more recent speakers are also high in WAF.
If it were me I'd just move on, you're not gonna change people's minds without scientific evidence and copy & paste isn't that.
Just played the Mantas for a really nice chap, who reads ASR,( I am hoping he might contribute something) it was a pleasure to have him here and he liked them.
Keith
Keith
You know, on that other site, the one with the Rainbow of Optimism...
Well, I have a gift for you, my friend:
Oh, and I'll throw one of these in for good measure:
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As I get older I seem to be going in the opposite direction with my replies compared to someone like Dr.Mark, who has gotten much more direct with his replies, lol.You know, on that other site, the one with the Rainbow of Optimism...
Well, I have a gift for you, my friend:
View attachment 459989
Oh, and I'll throw one of these in for good measure:
View attachment 459990
I'm glad I'm enjoying the hobby much more again, as opposed to trying to convince people with blinders on.
LMAOAs I get older I seem to be going in the opposite direction with my replies compared to someone like Dr.Mark, who has gotten much more direct with his replies, lol.
I'm glad I'm enjoying the hobby much more again, as opposed to trying to convince people with blinders on.
Doc is a character. I do respect him, but sometimes... whew.
When somebody like Doc actually gets enrolled in an idea, like some of Sigberg's Speakers, it's pretty cool to see him "light up" with praise. The sad part is those who don't understand or are not willing to "get it" as a concept and how they react.
To me, Thorbjørn's gear is supremely interesting and has driven me to look at different ways to address what I may want out of a Speaker I design. I still want to build my own gear, but now rather than just copying a Salk/Philharmonic concept, I want to marry it with a Sigberg concept.
That said, it is truly a shame when somebody who doesn't like a price or a Driver choice, or doesn't understand Speaker design, turns and bags on a product or designer for following their calling, especially if they are giving it their all and hopefully making it work!
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I hear ya! The nerve damage in my hands have really prevented me from doing some of the work I used to do, heck I had trouble building some Cat6 cables recently I needed, so I'm just happy to be enjoying the music and movies.LMAO
Doc is a character. I do respect him, but sometimes... whew.
When somebody like Doc actually gets enrolled in an idea, like some of Sigberg's Speakers, it's pretty cool to see him "light up" with praise. The sad part is those who don't understand or are not willing to "get it" as a concept and how they react.
To me, Thorbjørn's gear is supremely interesting and has driven me to look at different ways to address what I may want out of a Speaker I design. I still want to build my own gear, but now rather than just copying a Salk/Philharmonic concept, I want to marry it with a Sigberg concept.
That said, it is truly a shame when somebody who doesn't like a price or a Driver choice, or doesn't understand Speaker design, turns and bags on a product or designer for following their calling, especially if they are giving it their all and hopefully making it work!
I like Dr.Mark and his posts are always interesting, I'm glad to see him still helping so much at his age. I hate to think in decade and a few years I'll be around his age, it's inspiring, lol.
Enough of me highjacking this thread and good to speak to you again!
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