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Sigberg Audio Manta (12" wideband cardioid active speakers) development thread

When they produce around 500,000 speakers of a particular type, they can be made affordably, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are of poor quality. They actually have a substantial R&D budget, something like $500 million (Home Entertainment).

Sure, but if they have a front port that isn't a port, it sounds perhaps like something that came from the marketing department rather than the R&D department. But hard to comment when I don't know exactly which speakers you are referring to and how they are built. :)

Sound, as we perceive it, travels everywhere.

Well, that's what we're trying to change a bit with the cardioid approach. Less sound travel to the side and rear = less reflections, leaving a higher percentage of the energy to go towards the listener.
 
Well, that's what we're trying to change a bit with the cardioid approach. Less sound travel to the side and rear = less reflections, leaving a higher percentage of the energy to go towards the listener.
Excellent, if you can achieve that.

Some people say that the pistonic motion of the voice coil pushes the cone forward (and backward), which in turn pushes the air molecules in front of the cone, causing them to push the next molecule, and so on, allowing our ears to perceive that sound. The question is, when the cone moves back, does it pull the air backward, meaning that no air molecules are pushed outward during that movement? When the cone moves backward, its convex side seems to push air outward into the speaker box. If this is the case, there is a moment when sound is emitted from the cone, followed by a moment when sound moves in the opposite direction not emitting any forward sound, albeit with a very small time difference.

The strange thing is that convex sides can't effectively push air unless there is a tube around them; otherwise, they will simply slide through the air (arrow for example). Alternatively, the convex back side of the cone can push air perpendicular to its surface, meaning that sound (air molecules) won't be directed towards the back plate but rather towards the corners, assuming we consider the idea of air pushing the molecules.

So how does the cardioid work?
 
Excellent, if you can achieve that.

Some people say that the pistonic motion of the voice coil pushes the cone forward (and backward), which in turn pushes the air molecules in front of the cone, causing them to push the next molecule, and so on, allowing our ears to perceive that sound. The question is, when the cone moves back, does it pull the air backward, meaning that no air molecules are pushed outward during that movement? When the cone moves backward, its convex side seems to push air outward into the speaker box. If this is the case, there is a moment when sound is emitted from the cone, followed by a moment when sound moves in the opposite direction not emitting any forward sound, albeit with a very small time difference.

The strange thing is that convex sides can't effectively push air unless there is a tube around them; otherwise, they will simply slide through the air (arrow for example). Alternatively, the convex back side of the cone can push air perpendicular to its surface, meaning that sound (air molecules) won't be directed towards the back plate but rather towards the corners, assuming we consider the idea of air pushing the molecules.

So how does the cardioid work?

It seems like the topic now isn't really how does cardioid work, but how does loudspeakers work. I don't think this is the appropriate thread for that. :)

Extremely short, and with a disclaimer that I am not an expert on this field: The air molecules aren't really pushed away from the driver and to you, a pressure wave is created and then moves through the air, while the molecules stay mostly where they are except for the wave motion. When the cone moves back, this also helps this wave creation. Think of a kid on a swing, you can't just push it one way. It's the back and forth motion that creates the sound.

And the same thing certainly happens behind the driver, creating pressure inside the box as well. Otherwise not only would cardioid not work, a traditional bass port wouldn't work either.

With regards to where the sound or air molecules is "pushed", that's not really how it works. The sound doesn't behave like it was a bunch of small ping pong balls being hit by the driver, being affected by the angle of the driver etc.

Beyond that, again I'm not an expert on this in this kind of detail, and I think it is a topic for a different thread.
 
With regards to where the sound or air molecules is "pushed", that's not really how it works. The sound doesn't behave like it was a bunch of small ping pong balls being hit by the driver, being affected by the angle of the driver etc.
I know. I agree. That's why I wrote "some people say"

Anyway, how does the cardioid work? The way you understand it.
 
Excellent, if you can achieve that.

Some people say that the pistonic motion of the voice coil pushes the cone forward (and backward), which in turn pushes the air molecules in front of the cone, causing them to push the next molecule, and so on, allowing our ears to perceive that sound. The question is, when the cone moves back, does it pull the air backward, meaning that no air molecules are pushed outward during that movement? When the cone moves backward, its convex side seems to push air outward into the speaker box. If this is the case, there is a moment when sound is emitted from the cone, followed by a moment when sound moves in the opposite direction not emitting any forward sound, albeit with a very small time difference.

The strange thing is that convex sides can't effectively push air unless there is a tube around them; otherwise, they will simply slide through the air (arrow for example). Alternatively, the convex back side of the cone can push air perpendicular to its surface, meaning that sound (air molecules) won't be directed towards the back plate but rather towards the corners, assuming we consider the idea of air pushing the molecules.

So how does the cardioid work?

This is a very interesting way to formulate a question around this topic. I think it is crucial to first understand why waves in the air can propagate to begin with, and generally how gasses work.

Air is a mix of gasses, so for simplicity we can think of it as a gas, and use the therm "air molecules" or even simpler: "air particles" as a basis for this. The air is not packed full of particles. The density is allways a function of the pressure and temperature of the gas. Both of them can be described as the energy contained within the gas. The energy that comes from pressure can be viewed as a compressed spring. When released, its energy is also released. The heat contained inside the gas is very similar. But when heat determines the speed of air particles bouncing into each other randomly, the pressure is a sort of combination of the heat (speed) and the density (the number of air particles that hits in a given amount of time). So what keeps the gas from collapsing in on itself is simply all the particles moving in all directions and bouncing into each other.

We can imagine holding up a piece of paper in the air. An A4 sheet will have almost 620kg of push from air particles bouncing off on each side all the time. Since the two sides experience the same force and the particles hit the paper in all possible directions, everything will cancel out to a net zero force on the sheet of paper.

It is kind of the same thing with a diapragm. As we move the diaphragm a tiny amount, we make sure we move towards the bouncing particles on one side, making them bounche slightly more quickly back towards other particles, resulting in a wave like you desribed above. But it is important to understand that since these particles move in any direction, they will also bounce of the diaphragm in any direction.

When the diaphragm moves the other way, more space will be created for the moving particles. This is means more space will be created for the particles that were supposed to hit these particles, resulting in more space for the next layer, and so on. So the over-pressure and the under-pressure waves propagate the exact same way.

To further improve the understanding of this, it is important to understand that an object moving at constant speed through air does not create much sound, and hardly any pressure besides a local pressure front. A loudspeaker diaphragm creates pressure by accellerating, not by moving. When we apply current to the voice coil, a force is created. And as we all know, a force makes a mass accellerate. The voltage peak in the signal results in a current peak in the motor, that translates to an accelleration peak in the diaphragm. So while it seems intuitively correct to think of peak displacement of a diaphragm as the signal amplitude, it is actually the peak accelleration of the diaphragm that is the peak amplitude, and also the peak pressure.

This means that viewing a diaphragm as a "snow plow" in air is not the correct way to describe how sound is generated. The shape of the diaphragm does affect how sound spreads, but not because it generates a plow edge, rather because when you measure or hear the sound emitted, it does make a difference where in space different parts of the sound wave emits from. If you measure the sound emitted at an angle from a large cone, you will see that the center and the edge is more in phase if you measure the back than if you measure the front of the cone.

This also means the driver mounted in a cardioid box will in theory load the side ports more effectively when mounted the right way, than it would if you flip it around.
 
I know. I agree. That's why I wrote "some people say"

Anyway, how does the cardioid work? The way you understand it.

Cardioid is quite simple actually. If you imagine two sources emitting sound from different distances, you will see that they will be in phase and out of phase at certain frequencies. If the two sources are in line with each other, and you measure both from the front and the back, you will see that the summed pattern does not look the same in front of and behind the two if the two have oposite polarity.

A cardioid enclosure takes advantage of this, using the driver and cardioid ports in that specific range where sound forward is amplified, and sound backards is cancelled out.
 
I know. I agree. That's why I wrote "some people say"

Anyway, how does the cardioid work? The way you understand it.

I'll leave it to @Snickers-is to give the detailed explanations as he just did (at least to your initial questions). With regards to the other end of the spectrum, we literally just created the 90 second version of how this works the other day. :)

 
Screenshot 2025-03-11 at 22.34.42.jpg

This is what you are meant to explain: the how and the why?
It's not that easy. Some have attempted it with patents, but patents are not science; they are merely someone's ideas that others haven't documented, and for which they have paid to secure the patents. Some cardioid speaker makers believe that having circular holes at the front is suitable enough for cardioid "dispersion," and some even consider it effective at the back, and some in front below the speakers.

By the way, regarding the discussion of waves and air molecules, I wrote "some people say," indicating that those ideas are not my own.
 
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This is what you are meant to explain: the how and the why?
It's not that easy. Some have attempted it with patents, but patents are not science; they are merely someone's ideas that others haven't documented, and for which they have paid to secure the patents. Some cardioid speaker makers believe that having circular holes at the front is suitable enough for cardioid "dispersion," and some even consider it effective at the back, and some in front below the speakers.

By the way, regarding the discussion of waves and air molecules, I wrote "some people say," indicating that those ideas are not my own.

If you are asking me to explain exactly how we have achieved it, I am not going to do that.
 
I'm not asking that. Remember I mentioned the old German radios in one of my first posts? Most of them had those vents.

Okay. Then it is currently unclear to me if you have received answers to all your questions, or no? :)
 
Not really, but that's alright by me. Good night! :)

Feel free to ask follow-up questions.

I am still somewhat confused by the reference to ported speakers, to Sony and LG products that have just holes in the baffle and old german/dutch radios (which I sincerely doubt had holes in them for cardioid purposes, but I can of course be wrong). All these have in common that they don't have sealed enclosures, but I am not sure there are many more similarities beyond that.
 
Congrats @sigbergaudio on this product, it looks like a milestone in terms of integrating speakers into challenging room! Would love to hear it. Some thoughts:

Could you specify the x-over freq midrange/tweeter please? While the cardioid implementation looks flawless both for woofer and midrange, I wonder if the slight increase in directivity index above 3K would be audible in terms of imaging and ambience. If yes, a coaxial design with slightly broader tweeter dispersion might be advantageous here, like compact units from Beyma, TangBand, SB or other suppliers.

So how do we feel about a "baby Manta" with an 8" midbass?

I don't know how far the Baby Manta project is, but in my understanding it might be really challenging to add a passive cardioid to an 8". I am not aware of any driver offering perfect properties for such purpose. My personal impression was that smaller (than 10") drivers lack to a certain degree substantial kick bass when operating in cardioid or dipole mode, even if supported by a subwoofer or omnidirectional mode below 100Hz. Even if the SPL is delivered, beats appear to be a bit ´hollow´, if that makes sense, highlighting the fact that subwoofer band is omnidirectional. Would recommend to doublecheck that extensively in listening sessions (and maybe compare to D&D who have found the best compromise so far among compact cardioids in my understanding).
 
Congrats @sigbergaudio on this product, it looks like a milestone in terms of integrating speakers into challenging room! Would love to hear it. Some thoughts:

Could you specify the x-over freq midrange/tweeter please? While the cardioid implementation looks flawless both for woofer and midrange, I wonder if the slight increase in directivity index above 3K would be audible in terms of imaging and ambience. If yes, a coaxial design with slightly broader tweeter dispersion might be advantageous here, like compact units from Beyma, TangBand, SB or other suppliers.

They are crossed over at ~2500hz. I would subjectively say the imaging is pretty much up there among the very best I've heard already, but who knows if it could have been even better. :) And the change in directivity is pretty smooth and gradual between 2-4khz, and reasonably wide even for the tweeter.

I don't know how far the Baby Manta project is, but in my understanding it might be really challenging to add a passive cardioid to an 8". I am not aware of any driver offering perfect properties for such purpose. My personal impression was that smaller (than 10") drivers lack to a certain degree substantial kick bass when operating in cardioid or dipole mode, even if supported by a subwoofer or omnidirectional mode below 100Hz. Even if the SPL is delivered, beats appear to be a bit ´hollow´, if that makes sense, highlighting the fact that subwoofer band is omnidirectional. Would recommend to doublecheck that extensively in listening sessions (and maybe compare to D&D who have found the best compromise so far among compact cardioids in my understanding).

The Baby Manta project is stuck on the drawing board for now, but interestingly we have instead released a fullrange floorstander that uses an 8" coaxial driver and passive cardioid. It is supported by two rear facing heavy duty 8" subwoofer drivers (omnidirectional). They are crossed at around 140-150hz, but they overlap in the 80-150hz area.

Everyone comments on the punch and impact of it, and it does not sound hollow in any shape of form. A recent customer who auditioned both the Manta and the Saranna (the new floorstander) back to back with the same music for around 1 hour per speaker, said he would be hard pressed to tell them apart in a blind test. Due to the overlap, the cardioid effect extends lower than the crossover, and the switch between cardioid and omni is perhaps smoother and less problematic. Conceptually this is pretty similar to the Manta with subs, except the Mantas are crossing over to the subs at a lower frequency, and the Manta is of course 4-way rather than 3-way (which is why we needed the larger and more powerful coaxial driver).

Full spinorama measurements for the new floorstander does not exist yet, but below is an on-axis vs 180 degrees to give an impression of the cardioid effect. These are in-room measurements, so lots of imprecisions in the response here due to the room, but it shows the difference in energy at 0 vs 180.
1747661095896.png


Full thread about that speaker:



1747661191706.png

1747661206763.png
 
And the change in directivity is pretty smooth and gradual between 2-4khz, and reasonably wide even for the tweeter.

Smooth absolutely, I was just wondering how the perception of depth and distance is as the 1-2K band is relatively wide in terms of dispersion while above 2.5K there is a certain step up in d.i.. Have heard similarly behaving speakers showing some ´holographic´ localization of phantom sources pretty close to the listener, but detached ambience and reverb. Maybe this is audible only under studio conditions with recordings containing natural reverb, as the general directivity is narrower in case of your product.

we have instead released a fullrange floorstander that uses an 8" coaxial driver and passive cardioid. It is supported by two rear facing heavy duty 8" subwoofer drivers (omnidirectional).

Very promising concept which would, if implemented properly, solve a lot of directivity problems these huge coaxial drivers usually have. Have heard many of such concepts and some sound really midrange-heavy like one would expect it from a vintage coaxial 8" + horn. Did you achieve smooth transition between the cardioid and the natural dispersion of the frontal 8"?
 
Very promising concept which would, if implemented properly, solve a lot of directivity problems these huge coaxial drivers usually have. Have heard many of such concepts and some sound really midrange-heavy like one would expect it from a vintage coaxial 8" + horn. Did you achieve smooth transition between the cardioid and the natural dispersion of the frontal 8"?

It does not sound like that at all. It sounds very smooth and tonally balanced.

I would say yes but again I don't have the measurements to back it up to share from the final version of the product. We don't have an NFS unfortunately, but a visit to the anechoic chamber at Seas (which we use in addition to semi-anechoic measurements locally) with the final production model is planned before summer.

Here is horizontal dispersion characteristics of both coaxes (manufacturer measurements of the drivers themselves) if interesting. Note that the scale of the two graphs are different. Also the 5.5" coax in the Manta is crossed over at 600hz, while the 8" coax in the Saranna roll off more or less naturally until a high pass filter at 60hz.

The 5.5" in the Manta:
1747665028096.png


The 8" in the Saranna floorstander:
1747665005842.png
 
Here is horizontal dispersion characteristics of both coaxes (manufacturer measurements of the drivers themselves) if interesting.

Looks excellent, but I wonder about the discrepancy with your own directivity index calculation of the big Manta. I do not see any hint why dispersion of the 5.5" should narrow down that much in the octave above 2.5K. I assume the manufacturer´s measurements are some ´infinite baffle´ type, so the only explanation I see would be diffraction between 2.5K and 6K, maybe it has to do with the frontal cardioid vents and the upper edge of the cabinet. Main differences can be identified at angles between 50 and 120deg which in a way again points to baffle/waveguide geometry as the main root.

The 8" is even a bit better which is astonishing given the tweeter horn construction and the size. Making things easier as measures to increase directivity index (like your passive cardioid) are only necessary below 1.3K.
 
Looks excellent, but I wonder about the discrepancy with your own directivity index calculation of the big Manta. I do not see any hint why dispersion of the 5.5" should narrow down that much in the octave above 2.5K. I assume the manufacturer´s measurements are some ´infinite baffle´ type, so the only explanation I see would be diffraction between 2.5K and 6K, maybe it has to do with the frontal cardioid vents and the upper edge of the cabinet. Main differences can be identified at angles between 50 and 120deg which in a way again points to baffle/waveguide geometry as the main root.

The 8" is even a bit better which is astonishing given the tweeter horn construction and the size. Making things easier as measures to increase directivity index (like your passive cardioid) are only necessary below 1.3K.

The front vents aren't really cardioid vents but implemented to allow the coax to "see" a more narrow baffle and break up some off-axis build-up of energy. This approach resulted in an off-axis response that tracked the on-axis response better especially in the 1-3khz area.

For further study of the 5.5" coax, you can check out our SBS.1 implementation, a small non-cardioi, 3-way (or really 2.5-way) monitor that uses the same coaxial driver together with a 5.5" midbass driver. It's more tidy from a measurements perspective than the Manta, but it too has some narrowing when it crosses to the tweeter.

SBS.1 spinorama:
 
Why do you use such an ugly PA loudspeaker for the bass in the MANTA Cardioid Active Speaker system, with that obvious metal basket and no grille to cover up the primitive sealing ring? There are nice 8" drivers available, like from SEAS, with cool motors and graphene or plastic cones, like the U22REX. I know you need a bit more excursion, but why don’t you ask Dr. Müller and build yourself a proper bass driver for the MANTA?

The above is copied from this thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/understanding-subwoofers.63662/post-2335700 <- I'm answering here to avoid derailing the other thread completely.

@LSPhil - this is the driver you are referring to:
1750613795821.png
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First of all, it is not an 8" driver, it's a 12". And to imply that this is not a "proper" driver is very interesting. Seas has nothing like it. It's a 96dB Sensitivity / 1000W midbass driver that laughs in the face (and rightly so) of pretty much anything found in any commercially available hifi speaker. The Manta delivers 122dB@1m (per speaker). What are you even talking about. :D

The drivers look like business, because they mean business. If you don't like that form-follows-function look that the Manta is all about, that is an opinion you are of course entitled to. With regards to covering it up, the Manta comes with a grille if one would like to cover up the drivers, resulting in a pretty clean 70s monitor kind of vibe:
1750614079012.png
 
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