Show us your Cars

[middlemarch]

Interesting about the Grenadier and the Toyota Supra is that they both use the B58 engine from BMW, which is supposedly a reliable engine -- not by BMW standards, but by more mainstream standards. Toyota allegedly did serious stress testing on the B58 before getting in bed with BMW.

Truth be told, though, my reliability woes with German cars have tended to do with things other than the engine (suspension, electronics, etc.).

I hope you enjoy your new car, and have lots of trouble free fun.

As does the Z4, that engine goes into quite a few cars, not just BMW. I believe a Morgan model also uses it. Great engine, sounds fantastic, and gobs of bottom end torque. Hope it goes the distance. It (supposedly) finally has all the bugs worked out of their in-line six after, what, over 30 years of production? We shall see...

 

[PatentLawyer]

As does the Z4, that engine goes into quite a few cars, not just BMW. I believe a Morgan model also uses it. Great engine, sounds fantastic, and gobs of bottom end torque. Hope it goes the distance. It (supposedly) finally has all the bugs worked out of their in-line six after, what, over 30 years of production? We shall see...

I have a toy arriving next week with the S58, so my fingers will be double crossed.

 

[Keith_W]

Some Ferrari's to compare closest to the Luce by my eye would be the 458 Italia

NOTHING compares to the Luce, the most hideous Ferrari ever made!

I saw this AI video in my Insta feed ... an old Italian man running away and crying, "they ruined the Ferrari ...".

 

[aschen]

 

[aschen]

My 1984 930 which I have owned for 32years, 2018 6mt cayman GTS, and my 2007 Exige S which I no longer own unfortunately.

 

[xanalog]

NOTHING compares to the Luce, the most hideous Ferrari ever made!

I disagree:

I think Tesla started the "Platypus Bill".
As the Tesla CEO may quip "It's a front-end Mind Virus"!
Sure enough, Ferrari apparently was not vax'd!

 

[EJ3]

That is the only one that you get a Like from me... for. Sorry.

Ignoring the sound-fakery of Eco-boost and or Mach-E; since 2019, modern Mustangs include active exhaust systems that use tubes valves allowing drivers to select between a high-SPL sax or a growling pipe-organ exhaust notes. In the 'high performance' mode, it sounds more like rat-a-tat-a-tat of an unmuffled, large bore automatic gun.
There is absolutely no need for a stereo (...or robbing your 401K plan) to own your own Mustang GT (NA V8/6-speed).
It is absolutely a hoot to drive and the last standing muscle-car that is still the champ of Bang-for-the-Buck!
[as always YMMV!]

In this instance, I am only talking about the sound of these cars.
Do they sound "not like c..p"? For these, I'll say that they do not.
Which one I might desire (or not) is another story.

My personal vehicle (for fun) is none of the above.
Although I did have a 71 Mustang Grande with a 351 Cleveland at one time and a 1968 SS 396 Chevelle (they also sounded very good).
For this: (I personally specified, bought the components and built it from stem to stern: deburred the block and heads, machined the block, hand ported the factory heads (to outflow the original RAM Air IV heads at low and mid lifts and = them at high lift), set up the suspension with Koni Shocks, better Heim-Joint anti sway bars 1" lowering springs (still wanted to get over speed bumps), a Doug Nash 5 speed (Ist=4.03, 5th=1.00) that replaced the Borg-Warner S-T10, a set of TRI-Y headers (after I took the stupid-non performing side-pipes off), 3.08 final drive and back to original rims with 255/60R15's (I built it around 1984, so the tire tech was certainly not there), full framed it with welded in subframe connectors and many other things.
This 408 CI. (6.7 Litre's) resulted in 450 HP, 473 torque (at the rear wheels) and a 12.21 second, 120 MPH 1/4 mile at the top of 3rd gear and 188 MPH top speed in 1985.
And lots of cornering fun.
I worked for Porsche Cars North America at the time and was able to use their chassis dyno for tuning.

2 years later, while I had the engine and transmission out of it to do some reconfiguring, the rolling chassis was stolen. 2 years after that, it was found, totally stripped, in a salt water creek by some fishermen that got their fishing gear tangled up on it.
I still have the engine and transmission.
As one of 3 Pontiac 400's, one Pontiac 455 and many cylinder heads and transmissions in my mother's 2.5 car garage (at my homes, 1 has a carport and the other, nothing for a car). Work in progress.
Another (new) project:

 

[EJ3]

My 1984 930 which I have owned for 32years, 2018 6mt cayman GTS, and my 2007 Exige S which I no longer own unfortunately.

I drove many 930's when they were new, I was working for Porsche Cars North America as a QA and chassis dyno operator. (and one time only, drove a VERY scary [to me] on the Summit Point road racing track in West Virginia) a 746 HP 938 (the only one that I have ever seen).
Also, I drove the 43rd 959 made, in Stuttgart, which I never got past 3rd gear (my driving time was within the city limits).
But, there are some that really step these cars up (this one is set up for the Pike's Peak hill climb [at the time: as driven by 16 year old Lea Block]):

 

[EJ3]

My 1984 930 which I have owned for 32years, 2018 6mt cayman GTS, and my 2007 Exige S which I no longer own unfortunately.

If your 1984 is an East Coast car, I am most likely the one that put it through it's paces on the chassis dyno after it came off of the ship (during it's pre-delivery to the dealership inspection).

 

[EJ3]

NOTHING compares to the Luce, the most hideous Ferrari ever made!

I saw this AI video in my Insta feed ... an old Italian man running away and crying, "they ruined the Ferrari ...".

But (in comparison to other electric cars, I think the design looks better). And that is what I was comparing it to.
I tend to like the somewhat more subtle Ferrari designs:

 

[xanalog]

Since 2024, over 100,000 Ford GTs (Code: S650) have been sold, and possibly ~40% are said to be manual gearbox.

Nearly 400,000 Mustang GTs (S550+S650) have been sold since 2019.
That could only mean that there are at least that many Hooligans in our midst!

 

[Frank Dernie]

A few cars with piston engines (in the last 25 years or so) that I thought sounded pretty good:
Some things just make you happy to be alive - here are six of them...
(Photos and text taken from [and edited by me]) View attachment 535475
Saturday 21st January 23

---

TVR Cerbera, 1996, 47k, £31,000​

A British entrant: Now, this list isn’t about the most reliable V8s, remember, so the fact they’re made by TVR doesn’t come into it, and by all accounts a well-serviced AJP8 isn’t as bad as you might think. This flat-plane crank V8 is raw and immediate, with a ferocious appetite for revs. Once you get it past 4,000rpm you’re in heaven, because that’s when it’s howling its heads off – not literally, hopefully, and as this early Cerbera had a bottom-end rebuild 10,000 miles ago that should be in good shape, too.

Maserati Gransport, 2006, 74k, £22,950​

This engine was a no-brainer. Maserati’s Tipo F136 R V8 is an absolute gem of a thing, whatever it’s in. This great-value Gransport seems like the best installation: a F136 in a light-ish body just feels right. And you get a proper symphony as you explore different reaches of the rev range. It starts with the fruity, low-end warble, then builds through various stages – all equally delightful – to a high-revving, highly tuned crescendo at the top end. It’s so lovely that you don’t need a sports exhaust fitted to enjoy it, but that’s not to say you shouldn’t add one. Something like a Tubi system will release even more wonder – go on YouTube and search Maserati 4200 Tubi, look out for a Swiss-registered car hooning off from a standing start. Talk about sublime.

Ferrari 458 Speciale, 2014, 10k, £314,995​

No, it’s not the same engine as the Maser’s. Well, not entirely. For a start, it’s the Tipo F136 F, not R, and here it’s 4.5-litres. Most significantly, though, it swaps the cross-plane crank for the flat-plane variety. That changes the engine’s character completely to something rather harder-edged and higher revving. Contrary to popular belief, this engine was originally Maserati's, arriving first in the 4200 in 2001. It was then developed by Ferrari when it ran out of road to increase the capacity of its F131. Its crowning glory was in the 458 Speciale, and this one that's showing 10,000 miles is the perfect spec. The Speciale raised the rev limit to 9,000rpm, which delivered 135hp per litre – an astonishing amount for a naturally aspirated V8. At the time, I believe that was the most hp per litre of any series production car, and it still outdoes the latest 992 GT3 RS. In total, that gave it 605hp, but this is about noise not power. Be in no doubt about that, though: this motor delivers high-rpm thrills to send chills down the spine.

Lexus LC500 Coupe, 2018, 15k, £57,995​

The Lexus V8 deserved a place on its own merits. In part, because it’s nice to share the love around different nations, but also because it’s a darn fine motor in its own right and sounds great. It’s naturally aspirated, all aluminium, and boasts direct injection, Dual VVT-i and 32-valves. Nothing amazing there, and when it first appeared in the LS in 2007 it was just another smooth and quiet V8 – perfectly apt for a limo. That all changed when Lexus handed it over to Yamaha, who turned out the 2UR-GSE. This had new high-flow heads with high-lift cams, titanium exhaust valves and a variable length inlet tract. It meant a 5.0-litre V8 with much more freneticism at the top end and a soundtrack to match. It sounds at its very best in competition spec, in the Toyota GR DKR Hilux – in a Saudi Dakar that was without doubt the best-sounding engine in the race – but even in road trim it’s still something to behold. And in something like this low-mileage LC500 you get the looks to match the noise.

Ford Mustang Mach 1, 2021, 2k, £51,995​

The 5.0-litre Coyote makes all the right noises, but in the Mach 1 it has the extra twist of its snortier induction system and brace of 4.5-inch pipes sticking out the back. It adds a bit more depth of character to what’s already a very characterful lump. And the character is quite Jekyll-and-Hyde, awash with low-down torque that you ride listening to its lazy, old-school Yankee burbling, but when you go in search of the 7,500rpm limiter that all changes. About halfway round the tachometer the noise flicks from muscle car to NASCAR and takes on rather more serious edge. By that stage, it’s what you might describe as a bit rude, but in a good way.

Mercedes-AMG C63 Edition 507, 2014, 60k, £36,950​

With four countries ticked off, it’s time to end in Germany. Affalterbach to be precise, and the home of AMG. The M156 was its first in-house motor and a bit special. At 6.2-litres it’s by far the biggest capacity of anything here, and that means it has the heartiest lungs. The rolling thunder it generates could easily be mistaken for something aeronautical rather than automotive. If you hear one go by it’s truly distinctive and penetrating, with a deep, bassy bellow punctuated by crisp rasps with every gear change. And you’ll still be hearing it once it’s gone by, for quite some time. This C63 Edition 507 comes with an extra 50hp added into the mix. That was courtesy of the revised ECU, new conrods, lightweight crankshaft and forged pistons, all picked from the SLS AMG. Think of the 507, then, as God gargling with thunder and spitting lightning.

(EJ3: This last one is my personal favorite for the sound).

I am familiar with all these and they confirm my point that almost all piston engined cars sound crap, these models are only available in tiny numbers (the Mustang may be common outside the UK).

I actually used a TVR Griffith as my daily car from 1992 to 1997 it was fun and sounded great but it was a race tuned 4.3L version of the Rover V8 and needed high octane fuel.
I still own a 1990 Mercedes 500E which is a grandfather of the E63.

I am not a fan of the uneven firing burble of 2-plane crank V8s, personally. I know it is done for vibration and cheapness for road cars but I can't get over the engineering shortcomings this compromise guarantees. I do appreciate most people are familiar with it and wrongly associate it with power though.
The difference in cost between the Maserati 2-plane crank V8 and the Ferrari version is huge, not least because of the balancer shafts, but for me the scream is much more exciting than the burble and the power potential is exploited.

I do own an older flat plane crank Ferrari V8 and it is one of the most exciting sounding cars I know of particularly between 5000 and 8500 rpm. Massive fun on the roads around here, it is old enough to still have 3 pedals and a gated 6-speed 'box. Not too restful if one needs to drive a long distance to get to the quiet twisty roads it thrives on...

So I have usually personally owned lots of cars where the sound was a "feature" to be enjoyed but that doesn't detract from the fact that for 99% of piston engines the noise is a "bug" not a "feature" and I think the nostalgia for the noise of an IC engine from detractors of EVs is somewere between "quaint" and "bonkers".

I have been a member of Pistonheads for many years and am always astonished by the opinions of many car fans on there. They may be enthusiasts but many certainly are not knowledgeable about vehicle engineering.

 

[Frank Dernie]

But (in comparison to other electric cars, I think the design looks better. And that is what I was comparing it to.
I tend to like the somewhat more subtle Ferrari designs:

Yes, I know this is a valuable classic but to my eye it is one of the most ugly sports cars they ever made. My boss had one back in the 1970s and it was such a disappointment after the 275 gtb4 which I loved.

Mind you a friend and ex-colleague owns one of the six right-hand drive converibles (and we have been fishing in it...) and it is worth millions nowadays.

 

[EJ3]

I am familiar with all these and they confirm my point that almost all piston engined cars sound crap, these models are only available in tiny numbers (the Mustang may be common outside the UK).

I actually used a TVR Griffith as my daily car from 1992 to 1997 it was fun and sounded great but it was a race tuned 4.3L version of the Rover V8 and needed high octane fuel.
I still own a 1990 Mercedes 500E which is a grandfather of the E63.

I am not a fan of the uneven firing burble of 2-plane crank V8s, personally. I know it is done for vibration and cheapness for road cars but I can't get over the engineering shortcomings this compromise guarantees. I do appreciate most people are familiar with it and wrongly associate it with power though.
The difference in cost between the Maserati 2-plane crank V8 and the Ferrari version is huge, not least because of the balancer shafts, but for me the scream is much more exciting than the burble and the power potential is exploited.

I do own an older flat plane crank Ferrari V8 and it is one of the most exciting sounding cars I know of particularly between 5000 and 8500 rpm. Massive fun on the roads around here, it is old enough to still have 3 pedals and a gated 6-speed 'box. Not too restful if one needs to drive a long distance to get to the quiet twisty roads it thrives on...

So I have usually personally owned lots of cars where the sound was a "feature" to be enjoyed but that doesn't detract from the fact that for 99% of piston engines the noise is a "bug" not a "feature" and I think the nostalgia for the noise of an IC engine from detractors of EVs is somewere between "quaint" and "bonkers".

I have been a member of Pistonheads for many years and am always astonished by the opinions of many car fans on there. They may be enthusiasts but many certainly are not knowledgeable about vehicle engineering.

That is the first and only Pistonheads article that I have ever seen, but I happened to be in agreement with it.
I much prefer normally aspirated, aluminum block 500 CI (8 or so Litres with 700 lb.-ft at 3800 RPM & 700 HP at 5400 RPM than high revving engines (and the sound thereof).
So, we have different tats in the sound of our cars.
I'll say that based on Corvette sales some years ago of the
C4 ZR-1 (1990-1995)
Marked by its unique LT5 engine, a 375 hp (later increased to 405 hp) V8 developed in collaboration with Lotus. It featured a dual overhead camshaft design, which was a departure from the traditional pushrod V8. The C4 ZR-1 set numerous performance records and was known for its distinctive wider tail section.

That the majority in the USA are not too fond of engined that have power curves that start at higher RPM and sing the High RPM song. (as this one was just a moderate RPM engine).
This is an 8+ litre (91 Octane) street build that I was involved with (aluminum block) and it sounds like the Mercedes (on steroids) in the Piston heads article (but is much more powerful, has great B(rake) S(pecific) F(uel) C(onsumption) and meets or exceeds the emissions called for for the year vehicle that it was built for:
Please note the torque at: 3200 RPM there is 657 lb-ft of torque, and 400 HP.
And that the Torque peaks at 4700 RPM there is 701 lb-ft of torque, and 627 HP
The Horsepower peaks at 5700 RPM with 700 HP
5800 RPM with 701 HP
5900 RPM with 701 HP
dropping back to 6000 RPM with 699 HP
Peak tested RPM was 6100 RPM with 678 HP

No need for Super Premium Fuel or super high RPM's.
An adequate road trip, family car engine for road trips and such, in an Estate Wagon (or would it be classified as a "shooting brake" I think that this type of car would have sold better if Americans had called them "shooting brakes".) with a soundtrack that I like for the exhaust (that does not draw much attention from the Police [that does not mean that they won't look at the car for other reasons]):

It sold for $28,000 USD after many years of service. In some ways, it's like a Jensen SP (a subtle but fun ride when it is supercharged).
Anyway,
Different strokes for different folks.
And may we all have a wonderful audio journey listening to the sounds that we like.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I'll say that based on Corvette sales some years ago of the
C4 ZR-1 (1990-1995)
Marked by its unique LT5 engine, a 375 hp (later increased to 405 hp) V8 developed in collaboration with Lotus. It featured a dual overhead camshaft design, which was a departure from the traditional pushrod V8. The C4 ZR-1 set numerous performance records and was known for its distinctive wider tail section.

That engine was designed by my old boss Tony Rudd who was a main board member of GM as well as chairman of Lotus.
There was a cutaway in the reception lobby and it showed one small butterfly throttle valve and 2 huge ones either side. I asked Tony if the little valve (about 20mm diameter) was to give better throttle response and he looked at me sideways with a wink and said no, that valve is the only one open during some of the mandatory government tests...

Having a big engine tuned with a low rpm torque peak certainly allows ease of driving but is not very efficient.
To be honest if I want a vehicle with low rpm pulling power I would always choose a diesel. They are a bit like the low tuned petrol engines - loads of pull at low revs but breathless if you try to hang on to the revs, but about twice the efficiency or more.

My experience and expertise is mainly for racing and if you want high power within capacity rules wild tuning to keep the torque going at high revs is the only way to do it. They are definitely less relaxing to drive on a road car but faster as long as you use the gearbox to keep the engine in its power band.

Sound wise I like a sporty sound if thrashing around the country lanes but for normal driving the quieter the better for me.

 

[Somafunk]

This 408 CI. (6.7 Litre's) resulted in 450 HP, 473 torque (at the rear wheels) and a 12.21 second, 120 MPH 1/4 mile at the top of 3rd gear and 188 MPH top speed in 1985.
And lots of cornering fun.
I worked for Porsche Cars North America at the time and was able to use their chassis dyno for tuning.

Very cool, I didn’t know we had Chuck Norris as a forum member

 

[EJ3]

That engine was designed by my old boss Tony Rudd who was a main board member of GM as well as chairman of Lotus.
There was a cutaway in the reception lobby and it showed one small butterfly throttle valve and 2 huge ones either side. I asked Tony if the little valve (about 20mm diameter) was to give better throttle response and he looked at me sideways with a wink and said no, that valve is the only one open during some of the mandatory government tests...

Very good!!!

Having a big engine tuned with a low rpm torque peak certainly allows ease of driving but is not very efficient.
To be honest if I want a vehicle with low rpm pulling power I would always choose a diesel. They are a bit like the low tuned petrol engines - loads of pull at low revs but breathless if you try to hang on to the revs, but about twice the efficiency or more.

The engine we built had 4 main criteria (no higher octane than 91, make a lot of power down low (due to not wanting to use a lot of final drive gear because of the original appearing 3 speed automatic transmission, using the original engine format (more or less original appearance), good BSFC for a large, carbureted engine to lessen fuel stops.
In this instance, it was a customer car.
A diesel would be a better option for the application but that is not what they wanted (it also would have cost a lot more to do, since it was a gas car from the factory.)
And I am sure that the nice folks at the emission station would have some issues with doing that kind of conversion on a road going vehicle.

My experience and expertise is mainly for racing and if you want high power within capacity rules wild tuning to keep the torque going at high revs is the only way to do it. They are definitely less relaxing to drive on a road car but faster as long as you use the gearbox to keep the engine in its power band.

Sound wise I like a sporty sound if thrashing around the country lanes but for normal driving the quieter the better for me.

Lower gears & revs up on nice, windy mountain roads does sound wonderful.
Here, we are in what is called "The Low Country". They might call a 3 ft. hill a mountain. And there there not much reason for roads to have curves. The rivers do the curving, the roads have bridges and go straight. There are some really, really fun roads about 200 miles North of here, though:

 

[Frank Dernie]

That the majority in the USA are not too fond of engined that have power curves that start at higher RPM and sing the High RPM song. (as this one was just a moderate RPM engine).

I am not for a road car either, but am for racing and exciting sound.
For a road car electric is even better since it produces torque from a standstill over a really broad speed range, since it isn't depending on the oxygen flow rate, so instant throttle response and ease of overtaking and no need to stir a gearbox...

 

[MatrixS2000]

Doing what it does best...

 

[EJ3]

Yes, I know this is a valuable classic but to my eye it is one of the most ugly sports cars they ever made. My boss had one back in the 1970s and it was such a disappointment after the 275 gtb4 which I loved.

Mind you a friend and ex-colleague owns one of the six right-hand drive converibles (and we have been fishing in it...) and it is worth millions nowadays.

Around 1973 an older (maybe 10 years older) friend had one (I think that it was a 68 Berlinetta) and had it painted midnight blue with IMRON which proceeded to crack like hell. So it got repainted with the same & turned out wonderful.
It was also right hand drive. He had bought it used in England. It was a fun drive. We used to drag race, him in the Ferrari & me in my 1968 Chevy Chevelle SS 396 (automatic). After a few times we figured out that whoever had the best 60 ft. time was going to win the drag race. So, then we switched drivers. Since right hand drive and left hand shifting was awkward for me, he consistently kicked my butt, using my car. It was also during that time that I realized that at the end of 1/4 mile, when my car was in it's top gear, his car had just been put into fourth and that his car still had 5th left.
He let me use it to take a girl to my high school Jr. prom (1974). She was impressive to me but a spoiled rich bitch. Now she owns a large boat manufacturing business.
But that was the one and only time that I went out with her. (I should have took my actual girlfriend, who went to a different High School [and whom I dated from the time I was 15 until I was 27]). Things would have been much more fun.