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Shouldn't we upgrade the 20-20 audible range ?!
- Thread starter lashto
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- hearing range
FR barely covers 20kHz so already no dice.
And afterwards, there are copious amounts of "sound I did not pay for". I do not want to be 'reasurred' that it does not matter (particularly not by people who show zero proof). I just want clean tech, something that does not generate any crap.
Also this: distortion goes up with frequency. This is actually one of the latest/best Ds .. and even here, it is a bit of a stretch to say "good enough to 15kHz". Many others start going up at 1kHz already.
Also phase: not measured anymore, but last time I saw a graph it had pretty serious phase deviations above ~10kHz
And about all that, we get the same good old tune: don't worry, be happy, it's not audible, it's fine, it's tralala... some even say "it's perfect"!
Me not happy.
"Barely covers 20khz" ? It's -3dB at 60khz. I think even your cat will be happy with that.
And yes, it is higher at 15khz, but it's not high. It is not at all a stretch to call it good enough to 15khz. It's better than 0.01% THD @ 15Khz up to 250W. Are you seriously suggesting you can hear 0.01% THD at 15khz, when most people can hardly hear the fundamental at all even as an isolated sine wave, much less as part of music?
- Thread Starter
- #143
I wish switching a whole industry from 20-20 to 1-100 was a DIY task
one of my questions is not exactly technical ... more like psychology.
Car/motor people always ask for more, push for more and the industry gives them more. Not much to do with need either, people buy Porsches and drive them 30mph in the city. And quite often there aren't even any "estethic reasons". Just a (sometimes mindless) push for more.
Pretty much same happens in any other tech/domain nowadays.
Why does it not happen in audio?! You are quite an insider, maybe you have some tips/answers to share...
I wish switching a whole industry from 20-20 to 1-100 was a DIY task
one of my questions is not exactly technical ... more like psychology.
Car/motor people always ask for more, push for more and the industry gives them more. Not much to do with need either, people buy Porsches and drive them 30mph in the city. And quite often there aren't even any "estethic reasons". Just a (sometimes mindless) push for more.
Pretty much same happens in any other tech/domain nowadays.
Why does it not happen in audio?! You are quite an insider, maybe you have some tips/answers to share...
Because only audiophools care about that which can not be heard and waste money on it.
People who like listening to music care about good reproduction of music and don't see any point in audiophoolery.
You sound like the first type. Or a troll.
oleg87
Addicted to Fun and Learning
No thank you - start your own design outfit and waste your own time with your neuroses. Engineering is an art of well-judged tradeoffs and working engineers are generally in the business of optimizing for meaningful aspects of performance.
The *best* case for ultrasonic garbage is that it’ll modulate down to frequencies that matter and create audible garbage.
oleg87
Addicted to Fun and Learning
A 500hp engine in a commuter car will still push you back in your seat on highway onramps. This is more like bolting on giant F1 tires to a Beetle. Great, now you have a level of mechanical grip the car is fundamentally incapable of utilizing.
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
Only in the ones where it matters.
I don't go to the hardware store and marvel at the huge progress we see in the design of hammers.
There's plenty of progress to be had in audio reproduction, but it's all DSP and acoustics. Ultrasonics is a pointless tangent, IMO.
As usual for car analogies, inapt. No-one pushes for "more" things that are unrelated to the car's performance for its intended purpose (whether speed, handling, efficiency, capacity, crash safety...).
solderdude
Grand Contributor
boxerfan88
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All this talk about 8-28kHz is like talking about having a car that can go 400km/h. Day to day car speed is limited by traffic or by law, having a car that can go 400km/h is nice to have. Similarly, having a hifi system that can deliver 8-28kHz is a nice to have…
True. But I haven't tested it.
Strange you should say that. I currently live in a village in Northern Spain, near to but not quite in the mountains, pop. 55 in winter, 1200 in summer. I am thinking of building a dedicated room again, and am debating if true sound isolation is actually necessary. It's only for me after all, and the only noise source is the milk collection lorry that goes by every day at irregular hours, and twice a year a lot of sheep
Oh and helicopters when there's fire in the hills - no escape from them!Attachments
If the intermodulation products are in my audible range, I suppose so. I haven't had bad gear producing audible intermodulation for a long time now. As for TIMD, ditto!
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
The nice-to-have of the car is the ability to overtake a slow truck without praying for a non-lethal outcome. Acceleration, not speed.
An ultrasonic playback system has none of that. It literally does not offer any benefits.
A TV/monitor that showed picture information into both the infrared and utraviolet would at least keep you warm and give you a tan
A TV/monitor that showed picture information into both the infrared and utraviolet would at least keep you warm and give you a tan
Extra cooling costs in the summer and higher risk of skin cancer and cataracts from the direct UV.
(Unless you wear sunscreen and good sunglasses when watching TV).
Keith_W
Master Contributor
Isn't that interesting. The missing harmonic effect allows us to reconstruct lower fundamentals by hearing the harmonics, this is why we can "hear" bass which is not being reproduced by the speaker. I wonder if this suggests that an upper frequency version of the "missing harmonic effect" might exist - you hear the fundamental, but reconstruct the harmonics in your head. As far as I know there is no such thing, but just because nobody has done a study doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I believe you are telling the truth, now it makes me wonder how such an experiment could be designed.
- Thread Starter
- #156
... cause CD goes to 0Hz in theory only. Not sure if there is anything below 10Hz on any CD. And if there was, we can't play it.
... cause of those hundreds of studies I posted which say both infra and ultra sounds do matter. For health/wellbeing and most propbably for the music/sound/vibration experience too.
... cause of accuracy. A live performce 'vibrates' in the 5-50 range (ballpark numbers, I did not actually check). The rest up to 100+kHz is the just-to-be-sure-buffer.
... cause other people hear to 28kHz. And I do care about a bit more than just me. Not exactly a primary reason, but still
just an feeble asumption, do not bet on it
"at least 30kHz (-10dB)": is that the marketing-approved way of saying "linear only to ~20kHz" ?
Thanks for the specs tip, I thought it was -3 or -6dB (i.e. same as speakers). But 'usually' is quite feeble isn't it?
A point of distinction probably should be made: while IM most HO 20-20kHz is more than satisfactory and more than 85%?? of the world human population can hear, that is not to say that is what the equipment should be limited to. I now use inter alia an SSL Big Six which proudly states its FR as being in general (channels and overall) <5Hz to >80kHz @ -3dB, THD+N < 0.0015 %, and with no capacitors in the signal path (dubious benefit, but a well-engineered servo can be superior and so why not). That wide bandwidth there is definitely desirable in my view. I don't want phase funnies due to limited bandwidth in my audio chain (other than that put there by me!). However, good luck with the transducer end reaching those limits without unspeakable phase rotation (which might even be audible!) - though there once was an ionic tweeter... That applies both in (mics) and out (LS). Modern ADCs and DACs are vastly superior to those first available when 16-bit recording became viable, and are (generally) overall carefully engineered to avoid phase funnies and audible filter artefacts. Nothing is perfect, but it is supremely adequate, in my view. If I had only had this level of performance in '76!
IMV Best to concentrate on the music, the performance, the production, the master and the mix, where all sorts of deficiencies can now be exposed... (interestingly, this "small" Big Six has better channel specs overall than an SSL G or E series, by some margin).
IMV Best to concentrate on the music, the performance, the production, the master and the mix, where all sorts of deficiencies can now be exposed... (interestingly, this "small" Big Six has better channel specs overall than an SSL G or E series, by some margin).
coonmanx
Addicted to Fun and Learning
I like bacon...
- Thread Starter
- #159
some of us are lucky .. I still need to work in a big city.True. But I haven't tested it.
Strange you should say that. I currently live in a village in Northern Spain, near to but not quite in the mountains, pop. 55 in winter, 1200 in summer. I am thinking of building a dedicated room again, and am debating if true sound isolation is actually necessary. It's only for me after all, and the only noise source is the milk collection lorry that goes by every day at irregular hours, and twice a year a lot of sheep
- Thread Starter
- #160
did you at least open any of the hundreds of infra/ultra-sound studies I linked?
maybe you did not notice but there is a whole industry of treatments based on (invisible) infrared ... mostly beauty/skin stuff. Also infrared panels are supposed to be the best/modern way to heat a home. I'd buy one of those infrared TVs. Ultraviolet, not so much.A TV/monitor that showed picture information into both the infrared and utraviolet would at least keep you warm and give you a tan
'Suprinsigly' similar to audio: infrasounds have all sorts of healthy applications and ultrasounds not so much (mostly the opposite)
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