Shouldn't we upgrade the 20-20 audible range ?!

[DVDdoug]

I've NEVER heard wow or flutter from something that wasn't broken.

I've heard rumble from a cheap record player with a plastic platter. Otherwise, I've never heard a problem from a (non-broken) turntable itself.

The cartridge can make a difference in frequency response, and sometimes tracking distortion with "hard to track" records.

I've also heard hum & hiss from the preamp, although once the record is playing the record's surface noise usually dominates.



...I haven't played records for decades but sometimes I digitize one. if it's not available digitally.

P.S.
I have heard a LOT of bad & mediocre sounding records! I've spent a lot of time cleaning-up (or trying to clean-up) clicks & pops on digitized vinyl And back in the analog days most records had poor frequency response (rolled-off highs). I know it was the records because there were exceptions. It wasn't the analog tape because when the recordings were released on CD, the highs were (usually) there.

 

[Julf]

I've NEVER heard wow or flutter from something that wasn't broken.

I guess the theory is that the wow and flutter causes phase shifts that aren't perceived directly as sound/noise/distortion, but causes a spatial sensation.

 

[MRC01]

I was under the impression that you were talking about the published SINAD measurements of cartridges...
And, maybe I'm mistaken (My wife says that happens to me sometimes), but I did not find any.

The measurements are right there to see, more than 100 of them, showing frequency response & distortion. For example, here's the Ortofon 2M Blue: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tridge-measurement-library.46108/post-1750225

 

[MRC01]

I've NEVER heard wow or flutter from something that wasn't broken.
...

Certain types of music can make wow/flutter easier or harder to hear. For example solo piano (especially sustained notes) tends to reveal wow/flutter that can be otherwise hard to hear.

 

[EJ3]

Certain types of music can make wow/flutter easier or harder to hear. For example solo piano (especially sustained notes) tends to reveal wow/flutter that can be otherwise hard to hear.

That was the thing (solo piano) that I thought would be revealing.
I have never heard an issue with it on either of my TT's (Technics SL-M3 & DUAL 1229).
Or any of my cassette or reel to reel decks.
But I have heard a sort of wavy, warbling character to the music on some tape decks (both cassette & Reel to Reel) & some turntables. Phase Shifting, yep.
Which brings me back to how much wow & flutter variation can happen before it is audible (and I guess that is very hard to pin down because of things like the background noise floor and the type of notes being played. (It does seen that some piano notes would make it easier to discern at what point wow & flutter become an issue).

 

[MRC01]

That was the thing (solo piano) that I thought would be revealing.
I have never heard an issue with it on either of my TT's (Technics SL-M3 & DUAL 1229).
Or any of my cassette or reel to reel decks. ...

I've heard it (wow/flutter with sustained solo piano) occasionally in vintage analog recordings. It's not necessarily limited to playback equipment, but also could have been introduced in the analog master tapes during recording.

 

[EJ3]

I've heard it (wow/flutter with sustained solo piano) occasionally in vintage analog recordings. It's not necessarily limited to playback equipment, but also could have been introduced in the analog master tapes during recording.

Because of that, then it could also be an issue on digital formats (thinking CD but there are others) that the master was a compromised tape.
Wow, the hole is becoming a cavern!
And not exactly feasible to fix, if that is the issue.

 

[Julf]

Because of that, then it could also be an issue on digital formats (thinking CD but there are others) that the master was a compromised tape.
Wow, the hole is becoming a cavern!
And not exactly feasible to fix, if that is the issue.

That is why the "DDD" on early CDs was a big thing.

 

[krabapple]

On my TT:
Wow and flutter: 0.022% WRMS
I do not know about the wow & flutter (how much before it is noticeably audible). Can someone let me know on that, please?
Rumble: -82dB
I think that for many (maybe most) that is inaudible (what with normal room noise & all). Please let me know if I am not thinking the measurements through?
And for those that want to know what TT:
Vinyl Engine shows these pecs for my TT:
ibrary / Technics

Technics SL-​

Digitize something you played on your turntable. Then look at the spectrum and see what's happening below 20 Hz. You may be surprised.

 

[krabapple]

I've heard it (wow/flutter with sustained solo piano) occasionally in vintage analog recordings. It's not necessarily limited to playback equipment, but also could have been introduced in the analog master tapes during recording.

Or the 'vintage recording' was digitized from a vinyl source.

 

[EJ3]

That is why the "DDD" on early CDs was a big thing.

We mostly looked at them & said: "That's cool, if it sounds good, But it can sound good & be unlikeable or it can sound not so good & be great."
On the other hand, it could be great & sound great & that would be sublime (such as my opinion of the second bullet point here).
And, while we gravitate to digital, we still by records & it seems that the only ones who stream wear hearing aids. So they can hear it as they do things.
None of the folks I know use headphones on a regular basis or sit in a chair in one spot & just listen for more than a song or 2.
I do not know anyone that can sit in one spot for more than about 20 minutes.

But the perfection of digital was (and is) not something that mattered to me & my bandmates (I ran sound for live "Rock & Blues" style bands) & did not & do not play any instruments) & audiophile friends who had/have great systems at home. Not one is digital only. One person is doing 5.1 for when he plays movies.
It just happens to be nice that digital can be done & done very well (not always the case, though).
I gravitate to "LIVE" music, however it is recorded.

• September 5, 1982: Peter Gabriel releases his fourth studio album (titled Security in North America and Peter Gabriel IV elsewhere).[42] When released on CD in October 1984 it becomes the first full-digital DDD release. It was recorded on Sony's Mobile One digital studio[43] and mixed to a Sony PCM-1610.[44]
• 13 May 1985: English rock band Dire Straits' fifth studio album Brothers in Arms is released. It became the best-selling digitally-recorded album of the 80s, and the first album whose CDs' sales outsold LPs'.
• BUT not there yet:
• 1999: Ricky Martin's "Livin' la Vida Loca" becomes the first No. 1 single to be recorded, edited, and mixed fully within a digital audio workstation. Produced by Charles Dye and Desmond Child using Pro Tools.[53]

 

[EJ3]

Digitize something you played on your turntable. Then look at the spectrum and see what's happening below 20 Hz. You may be surprised.

You mean this issue, I presume (as you can see, I have a filter for that):

15 Hz filter (only) response.​

The low-frequency response is the same with the tone controls either defeated or engaged, for all inputs and all outputs.

The 15 Hz filter is selected with a rear-panel switch.

It's -1/2 dB at 20 Hz, -1 dB at 17.5 Hz, -2 dB at 15 Hz, -3 dB at 14 Hz, - 5 dB at 12 Hz and -10 dB at 10 Hz.

I may be wrong, but I feel that it is adequate.

 

[Cbdb2]

It doesn't sound that different either. A good vinyl production (as in a good record) on a good vinyl rig actually sounds pretty similar to digital. I bet on a lot of tracks you'd fail a blind test.

Any thing with deep bass is obvious, has surface noise disappeared?

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Any thing with deep bass is obvious, has surface noise disappeared?

As you may know, vinyl was very popular among DJs (including house and techno DJs) back in the day, and lack of bass was not a typical complaint among partygoers. It will not reproduce the very deepest bass, but it was not at all obvious on even pretty bass heavy tracks (aka house/techno).

If surface noise = pops and crackles from dust etc, this is not very noticeable on a clean record at moderate volumes.

I stand by my comment.

 

[Julf]

As you may know, vinyl was very popular among DJs (including house and techno DJs) back in the day, and lack of bass was not a typical complaint among partygoers. It will not reproduce the very deepest bass, but it was not at all obvious on even pretty bass heavy tracks (aka house/techno).

If surface noise = pops and crackles from dust etc, this is not very noticeable on a clean record at moderate volumes.

I stand by my comment.

I was part of a team running the sound and light at a disco back in the day. We did actually make a box of electronics that basically took the lower bass notes and added a copy of them, shifted an octave down.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

I was part of a team running the sound and light at a disco back in the day. We did actually make a box of electronics that basically took the lower bass notes and added a copy of them, shifted an octave down.

Interesting idea.

 

[Cbdb2]

As you may know, vinyl was very popular among DJs (including house and techno DJs) back in the day, and lack of bass was not a typical complaint among partygoers. It will not reproduce the very deepest bass, but it was not at all obvious on even pretty bass heavy tracks (aka house/techno).

If surface noise = pops and crackles from dust etc, this is not very noticeable on a clean record at moderate volumes.

I stand by my comment.

Ive never failed to notice that vinyl was playing instead of a CD.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Ive never failed to notice that vinyl was playing instead of a CD.

That's good for you, but anecdotal. What I'm suggesting is that given good conditions, the sound will actually be much more similar than the data may suggest, despite low SINAD and potential reduced frequency range (vinyl is capable of 20-20,000hz, but is often not in practice). Tons of tracks have very little energy below 30hz or so, and very few people will be able to hear lack of energy above 15,000hz in musical content.

Note: This is not me saying vinyl playback is as good as digital. My original comment was in reply to a few posts implying that vinyl had a distinct sound and sounded obviously different from digital. Which isn't necessarily the case.

 

[hex168]

I was part of a team running the sound and light at a disco back in the day. We did actually make a box of electronics that basically took the lower bass notes and added a copy of them, shifted an octave down.

Similar to a dbx sub-harmonic synthesizer?

 

[MRC01]

... What I'm suggesting is that given good conditions, the sound will actually be much more similar than the data may suggest, despite low SINAD and potential reduced frequency range (vinyl is capable of 20-20,000hz, but is often not in practice). Tons of tracks have very little energy below 30hz or so, and very few people will be able to hear lack of energy above 15,000hz in musical content. ...

True, nor do most people people notice the bass on vinyl has been summed to mono.