Shouldn't we upgrade the 20-20 audible range ?!

[Doodski]

plasmatweeter from Magnat MP02 did just that. It just requires changing electrodes every 500hours or so but you will get omnidirectional > 20kHz goodness from 4.5kHz to 150kHz.
Great for reproducing CDA and watching YT vids...

I was working for a fairly large privately owned AV and CD/records/cassettes retailer with 750 sales people owned by a audiophile German owner in Canada and I pushed for the Magnat Plasma tweeter in store but to no avail... We received many very beautiful esoteric wood grained speakers and all the KEFs, B&Ws, Energy, Infinity etc but no plasma tweeters. sigh*

 

[solderdude]

I listened to the expensive (MP-X-101) Magnats quite a few times in Rotterdam (store called Correct) back in the 80's.
Interestingly enough they used CD for demos ... Speakers sounded great but there were others in the store that sounded even better.

 

[Doodski]

I listened to the expensive (big) Magnats quite a few times in Rotterdam (store called Correct) back in the 80's.
Interestingly enough they used CD for demos ... Speakers sounded great but there were others in the store that sounded even better.

Wow... I want to ask the parameters of the gear setup but I trust your judgement in the system setup. I was advised the gear setup was stinky with inert argon and the flames where disconcerting. I doubted the stinkyness of argon due to it being inert but apparently it is a issue

 

[solderdude]

Surprisingly there was no smell coming off from it. A buddy of mine built his own plasma tweeter (which killed TV reception all around his home !) but that had no ball around it.
That one emitted ozone. I reckon the ball kept the ozone inside ?

Plasma – Magnat HiFi MuseuM

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Can't remember what gear it was connected to back then.

 

[Doodski]

Surprisingly there was no smell coming off from it. A buddy of mine built his own plasma tweeter (which killed TV reception all around his home !) but that had no ball around it.
That one emitted ozone. I reckon the ball kept the ozone inside ?

Plasma – Magnat HiFi MuseuM

Berichten over Plasma geschreven door magnathifimuseum

magnathifimuseum.wordpress.com

I have no idea but I do know the TV techs when working with high voltage stuff smelled ozone and advised us to be aware. I was on a totally different floor with a skylight overhead and never concerned myself but people where very concerned. I worked around a ton of welders (Like 70 of them.) with argon when I was a electrical assembler for wheeled and tracked heavy machinery electrical systems and it was smelly from the welders with their argon and high voltage corona.

 

[lashto]

Cool ... why don't my speakers recreate the smell of a gig, that's what I'm interested in now ...

pretty old news, many people already working on that https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/05/09/1072731/vr-smell/

Not sure I would buy the smell recreation of a punk concert .. but who knows.
Anyway, smell is offtopic too ... but I would be interested if anyone opens a dedicated thread

 

[lashto]

Surprisingly there was no smell coming off from it. A buddy of mine built his own plasma tweeter (which killed TV reception all around his home !) but that had no ball around it.
That one emitted ozone. I reckon the ball kept the ozone inside ?

Plasma – Magnat HiFi MuseuM

Berichten over Plasma geschreven door magnathifimuseum

magnathifimuseum.wordpress.com

Can't remember what gear it was connected to back then.

The Lansche guys say that they solved the ozone/smell issues... but I haven't seen any (independent) measurement/confirmation.

People who tried their speakers do agree and I also heard some at a show a few years ago: no funny smells in the room. But I had no ultrasound 'dreams' at that time and did not pay much attention to the room, the speakers or the usual audio-show-content they were playing. Next time..

 

[lashto]

I don't think infinity will ever become practical.

particularly for the ADC/DAC domain, that is my impression too. But IANAEE and new inventions happen daily

At 10 MHz you'd have to place the microphone less than 0.1mm from the source in order to capture the sound wave before it gets absorbed by the air.

Even at 120kHz you'd probably need to do some serious boosting. Both because of the attenuation from the air, and because of the way early reflections quickly turn to anechoic conditions.

And that assumes you can find a way to make a tweeter output 120kHz without literally beaming like a laser

Haven't seen any practical reason to record or play 10MHz. The ~120kHz limit of the acoustic instruments sounds good enough to me. And it is (almost) practical/doable nowadays.

P.S.
if anyone has more oppinions/info on the clean-to-inifinity subject, feel free to post.
And do not worry if you have no idea or experience about the subject. Noone in this thread has any idea or experience with 120kHz either .. and we aready have 30+ pages of "expert oppinions"

 

[pkane]

The ~120kHz limit of the acoustic instruments sounds good enough to me.

That's the thing. 120kHz doesn't sound good, bad or indifferent. Demonstrate that you can hear it, and someone may actually take you seriously.

 

[Julf]

Haven't seen any practical reason to record or play 10MHz.

Haven't seen any practical reason to record or play 120 kHz either.

 

[solderdude]

Noone in this thread has any idea or experience with 120kHz either

So why insist that it is needed/required if no-one has recorded or reproduced that high up while there is equipment that already can do this ? Just because you think/suspect you or anyone else would find it beneficial ?
Could that be because it is not needed at all given human hearing ?
Is this thread just to rattle some chains ?

 

[lashto]

So why insist that it is needed/required if no-one has recorded or reproduced that high up while there is equipment that already can do this ?

it's only "noone in this thread".

The scientists who wrote the linked studies, actually did produce, record and try 20+kHz sounds and music. Even above 120kHz. And those hypersonic japanese built a whole 120kHz recording/playback chain, including custom mics and speakers. And then made their own 120kHz recordings, tried/tested/measured everything and wrote 20+ papers. Published, reviewed and replicated science that says 20kHz-120kHz does matter.
Some question marks still hanging (as with any science/study), but up to now, theirs is the only oppinion that actually qualifies as 120kHz-science.

And for me, a good enough reason for trying 120kHz myself. Even more now, after 30+ pages of (expected) 'opposition' to anything outside 20-20 .. which can be easily resumed as "dancing about architecture" .
Sometimes quite entertaining though. And who knows, the door is still open for someone to post more useful info/science/studies/gear ...

 

[Julf]

Published, reviewed and replicated science that says 20kHz-120kHz does matter.

Published, yes. When an independent group tried to replicate the results, they failed.

 

[pkane]

And for me, a good enough reason for trying 120kHz myself.

You're in luck! Get https://www.sharpertek.com/precision-cleaning-ultrasonic-cleaner-xp-hf-2400-18g-120khz.html. It's on sale for only $5,100. Buy it an listen to 120kHz all day long.

 

[lashto]

Published, yes. When an independent group tried to replicate the results, they failed.

you & everyone else are highly welcome to stop "dancing" and debunk any of the linked studies/science about the outside-20-20 realm.
Don't be shy .. but it would be much more useful if you posted some concrete links/studies/science

 

[Killingbeans]

particularly for the ADC/DAC domain, that is my impression too. But IANAEE and new inventions happen daily

No. The ADC/DAC domain is not the big problem. A 240kHz sample rate isn't an absolutely crazy thing in the world of electronics.

As I said, the thing that will f¤ck you over is the acoustics.

 

[Julf]

Here is another helpful device:

 

[lashto]

No. The ADC/DAC domain is not the big problem. A 240kHz sample rate isn't an absolutely crazy thing in the world of electronics.

As I said, the thing that will f¤ck you over is the acoustics.

Yes, the latest ones can do 768/32 or even more.
But I was refering to the clean-to-infinity aspect of ADC/DAC: i.e. no filter, no 'tricks', just generate clean A & D signals at any and all frequencies. Does not seem possible .. nowadays at least.

In terms of 120kHz, we do seem to have everything needed: mics, ADC/DACs, amps, speakers. It's just very expensive stuff and very very DIY custom...

And I just can't find a single, proper, 120kHz recording to try. The people behind the life-above-20 study did try to record an orchestra but apparently ran out of funding and gave up...

 

[Julf]

you & everyone else are highly welcome to stop "dancing" and debunk any of the linked studies/science about the outside-20-20 realm.
Don't be shy .. but it would be much more useful if you posted some concrete links/studies/science

Let's start with the paper by Martin Colloms in Proceedings of the Institute of Acoustics: "DO WE NEED AN ULTRASONIC BANDWIDTH FOR HIGHER FIDELITY SOUND REPRODUCTION?".

Then I have to point out that the AES paper listing 30 papers is rather pointless as all the papers are by T Oohashi and his team. Oohashi is not a psychoacoustics researcher, but "agricultural scientist, composer, and record producer".

Attempt to replicate: NHK Laboratories Note No. 486. Result: "Each sound stimulus showed no significant difference, and so the subject could not discriminate between these sound stimuli with and without very high frequency components."

 

[Julf]

Yes, the latest ones can do 768/32 or even more.
But I was refering to the clean-to-infinity aspect of ADC/DAC: i.e. no filter, no 'tricks', just generate clean A & D signals at any and all frequencies.

The sound we just heard was goalposts moving at ultrasonic speed.