Shouldn't we upgrade the 20-20 audible range ?!

[lashto]

Sure! Don't forget to include radio, microwaves, X rays and Gamma rays for that "everything included" image.

fortunatelly there is no need for me to include anything, that is studio business. I am just the poor playback-only guy at the end of the music chain

There are so many amps that can reach do 10Hz to 100kHz (no cutoff points mentioned)

yep there are, some were even measured to 500kHz and above. But this Rose seems to be the only classD with such claims

These lossy codecs weren't produced arbitrarily one day on a spreadsheet, they were improved through many, many, many ABX tests with real listeners.

and they are still improving and will continue so. Nothing is perfect.

I think we have established that nobody can hear up to 100khz just like nobody can see X-rays. The anatomical structures to do this do not exist in humans.

So... why? This is almost like paying cold, hard cash for Russel's teapot.

You are still talking about audible sound. That's offtopic in this thread

 

[JustJones]

Not all sweetness and light on the benefits of ultrasound. More research is needed.

Possible Effects on Health of Ultrasound Exposure, Risk Factors in the Work Environment and Occupational Safety Review

Ultrasonic waves are mechanical waves with a frequency greater than 20,000 Hz. Ultrasonic waves are emitted by devices that are used in industry or that have a medical or aesthetic purpose. There is growing interest in the effect of ultrasound absorption ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Julf]

You are still talking about audible sound. That's offtopic in this thread

In a thread talking about "upgrading" the audible range?

 

[lashto]

You Will hear supertweeters as they cant be integrated properly due to the tiny wavelength and filters not being steep enough so they will interfere with your normal tweeters. With higher frequencies you must place the drivers closer to each other , at these frequencies the required distance is smaller than the drivers so they should overlap which is impossible. So it’s just an acoustic mess , not worth the trouble

If you want extended hf the actual tweeter must be built for it , like some BE and diamond tweeters or ribbons ( and some others ) actually are,

Worth emphasizing this comment. The recommended maximum distance between drivers is one quarter wavelength at the crossover frequency, to avoid destructive interference.

If we are generous with the supertweeter and cross it at 16Khz, we should try to have the center of our tweeter, and the center of our supertweeter... (checks notes) a little more than 5mm apart, ideally closer.

As the drivers themselves are much larger than this, it's physically impossible. More of an expensive and difficult way to mess up the dispersion of your tweeter.

Possibly you could do something with a very small piezoelectric supertweeter placed coaxially with the tweeter... but again, why?

Yep, that is a very good point. And one of the (many) reasons why I do not want to pay 1000+ just to try some slap-on supertweeter.

In spite of multiple rounds of searching, the Lansche plasma seems to be the only serious option: 1.5 - 150kHz at pretty good 98dB sensitivity (at least on paper). And in theory, it can be used in a horn (100dB sensitivity is another 'bug' I am chasing lately). But seriously expensive and looks like they are not even selling it anymore. At least it should be possible to try/hear it at some audio show.

And one more exotic thingie. They do publish fairly detailed measurements but it's also very expensive and with pretty excessive distortion.

 

[lashto]

Not all sweetness and light on the benefits of ultrasound. More research is needed.

Possible Effects on Health of Ultrasound Exposure, Risk Factors in the Work Environment and Occupational Safety Review

Ultrasonic waves are mechanical waves with a frequency greater than 20,000 Hz. Ultrasonic waves are emitted by devices that are used in industry or that have a medical or aesthetic purpose. There is growing interest in the effect of ultrasound absorption ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

yes, the ultra range could be reeeally bad. The OP links to even 'worse' studies.

One of the benefits of 'upgrading' to 1-120kHz is that you will not have any 'crap' in that range: i.e. every audio device should be linear & clean 1-120. It may be a worthy upgrade, even if there is no sound there.

 

[lashto]

Then why not just go all in on this health benefit from unheard stuff mumbo jumbo, and get yourself a Van den Hul "Extender"?

You place it on top of the speaker, same as a "super tweeter", and it gives you all of the same nutty claims of improvement without the need for actual sound.

that is surely the most original suggestion

You cannot measure or hear any sound coming from The Extender. The Extender emits a signal which communicates direct with the brain.

but since it does not produce any sounds, it seems a teeny tiny bit off topic too

 

[JustJones]

yes, the ultra range could be reeeally bad. The OP links to even 'worse' studies.
And one of the benefits of 'upgrading' to 1-120kHz is that you will not have any 'crap' in that range. It may be a worthy upgrade, even if there is no sound there either.

I don't get it. Are you assuming if the audible range of humans is expanded to include ultrasonic up to 120khz to keep 'crap' out whatever crap is then it's a worthy upgrade? Why stop at 120khz and it's not just 'crap' in these frequencies that may cause harm but the fact we're exposed to them the more logical response if the worry is human harm is not to expand but reduce.

 

[lashto]

I don't get it. Are you assuming if the audible range of humans is expanded to include ultrasonic up to 120khz to keep 'crap' out whatever crap is then it's a worthy upgrade? Why stop at 120khz and it's not just 'crap' in these frequencies that may cause harm but the fact we're exposed to them the more logical response if the worry is human harm is not to expand but reduce.

the 'stop' at 120kHz comes from the range of frequencies produced by an acoustic orchestra. Still somewhat unclear how far that goes but seems to be somewhere above 100kHz. So I chose 120 cause it sounds nice and round.
Otherwise, I'll buy linear & clear to infinity anytime ... question is, who's selling?

P.S.
In spite of some deceitful appeareances, I am not for unreasonable/unpractical targets
And clean-to-infinity ADC/DACs do not seem practical during the next 5-10 years .. if ever. Same for mics & speakers. And we also have the switching power supplies.
But if you know how, you are highly welcome to bring the clean-to-infinity audio chain ... and highly welcome to discuss it in this thread.

 

[Tell]

You are still talking about audible sound. That's offtopic in this thread

Someone is moving the goalposts.

 

[lashto]

Someone is moving the goalposts.

I would blame it on epanadiplosis .. and falsely assume that anyone can pronounce or remember that word
Anyway, the old 20-20-king is same as dead ... and offtopic in this thread.
And that is just an IMHO, anyone can post whatever they please, same as always...

 

[JeremyFife]

Cool ... why don't my speakers recreate the smell of a gig, that's what I'm interested in now ...

 

[Mnyb]

Cool ... why don't my speakers recreate the smell of a gig, that's what I'm interested in now ...

I want the DC component so I can feel the weather, the pressure of the air in the venue must be recorded, seal your room properly…..
Normal recording tech is lame it only records the changes in air pressure not the absolute pressure

 

[kemmler3D]

As I am also only interested in sound for its audible properties, I will leave this thread alone. If I want the therapeutic effects of natural ultrasound I'll ride my bike to the local woods.

May revisit this thread if I ever find myself living in a futuristic Kowloon Walled City On Steroids cyberpunk dystopian arcology-dome in which recordings of nature are my only means of accessing it.

 

[Hayabusa]

I want the DC component so I can feel the weather, the pressure of the air in the venue must be recorded, seal your room properly…..
Normal recording tech is lame it only records the changes in air pressure not the absolute pressure

Hey you stole that from me haha

 

[Killingbeans]

P.S.
In spite of some deceitful appeareances, I am not for unreasonable/unpractical targets
And clean-to-infinity ADC/DACs do not seem practical during the next 5-10 years .. if ever. Same for mics & speakers. And we also have the switching power supplies.
But if you know how, you are highly welcome to bring the clean-to-infinity audio chain ... and highly welcome to discuss it in this thread.

I don't think infinity will ever become practical.

At 10 MHz you'd have to place the microphone less than 0.1mm from the source in order to capture the sound wave before it gets absorbed by the air.

Even at 120kHz you'd probably need to do some serious boosting. Both because of the attenuation from the air, and because of the way early reflections quickly turn to anechoic conditions.

And that assumes you can find a way to make a tweeter output 120kHz without literally beaming like a laser

 

[Killingbeans]

I want the DC component so I can feel the weather, the pressure of the air in the venue must be recorded, seal your room properly…..
Normal recording tech is lame it only records the changes in air pressure not the absolute pressure

I want AI DSP that lets you add drunk people standing next to you "singing" loudly along, only slightly comprehensible and completely off-key.

I want that authentic concert experience!

 

[EJ3]

Cool ... why don't my speakers recreate the smell of a gig, that's what I'm interested in now ...

Maybe to have that:
one needs to perform alcohol & perfume abuse rituals.
Such as throwing a bit of many different alcohols around (walls too) a bit of perfume spritzing, dribbling a bit of urine here & there, closing all doors & windows, shutting off the ventilation & leave the place sitting like that for a month or too.
With some prayers to whomever, it all MIGHT meld together to give you the right smell.
And, sadly, maybe not.
Not having actually tried this myself, I am not sure.
But, I have been the owner of a couple of clubs.
And that is my recipe suggestion.

 

[Brian Hall]

that is true. And this thread challenges exactly that "conventional wisdom". Which is also one of the reasons why most of the currenty available music does not have much outside of the 40-16 range .. and almost nothing outside 20-20.
But that does not mean it is also right ... or forever enough for everyone & everything.

It is forever right for human beings who have not been modified in some way to hear the irritating noise above 20khz. I think anyone who actually wanted to hear those non-musical noises would have to be crazy.

 

[Brian Hall]

Cool ... why don't my speakers recreate the smell of a gig, that's what I'm interested in now ...

I'll pass on that. Pot smoke and sweat? Leather pants that have never been cleaned? No thanks.

 

[solderdude]

And that assumes you can find a way to make a tweeter output 120kHz without literally beaming like a laser

plasmatweeter from Magnat MP02 did just that. It just requires changing electrodes every 500hours or so but you will get omnidirectional > 20kHz goodness from 4.5kHz to 150kHz. Worked at 27MHz...
Great for reproducing CDA and watching YT vids...