Shouldn't we upgrade the 20-20 audible range ?!

[solderdude]

Because none of us measured, heard or even seen a proper 1-120 recording.

Its just as silly as stating that to look at pictures you need a monitor to go from well below infrared to well above ultraviolet in order to enjoy the picture.
We don't need monitors or a light shone on a printed picture to have a bandwidth that wide so no one is going to bother making a monitor that can do that for the off chance that someone might think they need it.

I believe that one huge difference between a live and recorded orchestra is outside the 20-20 range. And that is not some belief, it is measurable and it was already measured and 100% confirmed.

I believe you believe that and what you believe is 100% confirmed for you but the rest of us think you misinterpreted that. You stated yourself you can't hear above 16kHz or so yet you want 120kHz otherwise it does not sound live ?
You say we can't prove that CD quality is enough for music enjoyment but you can't prove 1-120k is needed and only then a recording can sound 'live' to you.

For extra lolz, maybe someone can post a proper recording of an eartquake or volcano.

Yeah... and when they do they also used a microphone AND have used that in an actual recorded music piece to enhance the live feeling.
Straws can break if you hang on too long

The problem seems to be the normal HiFi midlife crisis, where you realize your HF hearing sucks, and you start overcompensating by sticking supertweeters on top of your speakers.

Yep seems that way.

I was at an exhibition a few days ago. When I walked in the room with my son he covered his ears and when looking around there was an old CRT showing an old movie.
Remembering the days I could hear a TV being on but for me the room was silent.

The conclusion was that recordings I heard in those days did not sound like live music to me then nor do they today. Sure a good live recording on a big screen in dolby Atmos at high SPL is impressive and better than 2CH or headphones but it still does not have the same 'feeling'.
Must be the 1-120kHz bandwitdh that is missing. I'm sure I can hear that despite not hearing the squeal of the frikkin' line transformer.

 

[Robin L]

nope, did not "fail" anything.
The output only drops -7-8dB at 20kHz but then it raises again and at 40kHz is less than 5dB down. Both the drop and the (re)raise are quite mild, no "dramatic" drops anywhere in the measured 20-40 range .. and no idea aftewards. No fail, no drop, no drama ... just a big "nooone knows".

A frequency chart of a real, live, hi-rez download, with extended high frequency response:

Looks like average level of the normal frequency spectrum is -20 db. By the time we reach 20 khz, it's more than - 60 db. 30 khz is nearly - 80 khz. By the time we reach 40 khz, it's well under -80 khz. No matter how you look at it, there is an obvious downward trend in the supersonic frequencies, easily masked by the actual audible frequency range. Note that the folks at Hi-Fi News call this recording "The 'real thing'." But it's clear that little is being added on top. I'd bet anything that in a DBT, no one would hear the difference between the 48 khz version and one with a 20 khz lo-pass filter.

No one.

 

[solderdude]

No one

But that's only because the mics can't reach above 48kHz in your example. In order to sound really convincing you need a microphone that is not sloping downwards. That's the reason why the FR appears sloping... the mics can't record it.
When the, present during the recording, 110kHz content would be properly recorded it would show up in the recording at near -20dB levels or even higher.
That's what's missing in this poor quality recording.

 

[kemmler3D]

A frequency chart of a real, live, hi-rez download, with extended high frequency response:

View attachment 381109
Looks like average level of the normal frequency spectrum is -20 db. By the time we reach 20 khz, it's more than - 60 db. 30 khz is nearly - 80 khz. By the time we reach 40 khz, it's well under -80 khz. No matter how you look at it, there is an obvious downward trend in the supersonic frequencies, easily masked by the actual audible frequency range. Note that the folks at Hi-Fi News call this recording "The 'real thing'." But it's clear that little is being added on top. I'd bet anything that in a DBT, no one would hear the difference between the 48 khz version and one with a 20 khz lo-pass filter.

No one.

Especially when you consider that (even among those with superlative hearing) sensitivity to ultrasonic frequencies goes down rapidly as frequency goes up. Even those with the best possible hearing have a remote-at-best chance of hearing the difference.

 

[solderdude]

Especially when you consider that (even among those with superlative hearing) sensitivity to ultrasonic frequencies goes down rapidly as frequency goes up. Even those with the best possible hearing have a remote-at-best chance of hearing the difference.

its bone conduction or the resonance frequencies of living cells connected to the auditory system ... presumably. So it is shown to exist in countless research.
For that reason we need mics, ADC's, studio DAW's, DACs, amps and transducers to reach 1MHz at least and when extending upwards we should also do the same on the other side of the spectrum, just in case and to ensure the 1-120kHz requirement is met at -0,05dB.
I propose 0.1Hz (10 second period) to 1MHz with 32 bit depth and at least -400dB S/N ratio (see research R. Watts).

 

[JustJones]

New Adam A8H pretty flat to 30khz
They claim the rise is intentional

The on-axis frequency response shows the sound radiating from the loudspeaker along the acoustical axis (a position on the
front panel between the tweeter and woofer). All loudspeakers are band-limited devices so there is a low frequency roll-off
and a high frequency roll-off. The low frequencies should extend as deep as possible for the size of the loudspeaker. The high
frequency response should extend beyond what one can hear. Between these two frequencies, the line should be as flat as
possible, but resonances, edge diffraction and system tuning can stop this from happening. Using the PURE voicing setting,
the A8H has a reasonably flat response but there is one feature to note:
The gentle rise toward the very high frequencies is deliberate as it compensates for the narrowing directivity of the tweeter.
The result is a flatter in-room response.

 

[solderdude]

but ... how do we know if it can reach the required 1Hz to 120kHz frequency range if they only measure 20-40kHz ?
This speaker clearly cannot reproduce true live sound.

I'll get my coat.

 

[Robin L]

But that's only because the mics can't reach above 48kHz in your example. In order to sound really convincing you need a microphone that is not sloping downwards. That's the reason why the FR appears sloping... the mics can't record it.
When the, present during the recording, 110kHz content would be properly recorded it would show up in the recording at near -20dB levels or even higher.
That's what's missing in this poor quality recording.

Thanks for your clarification.

I've had two naps today, think it's time for another.

 

[JeremyFife]

very glad to hear that! And the 25 thread-pages are way over my most optimistic expectations.

Only wish that others will post more related info/studies/science... even the nay-nay sort is highly welcome. The only really new thing I learned was how US senators can have allergies with global effects .. but I am not pretentious

Apologies for any misunderstanding @lashto - I'm NOT learning anything from you. Contribution from other (very patient) members are instructive.

 

[krabapple]

Only wish that others will post more related info/studies/science... even the nay-nay sort is highly welcome. The only really new thing I learned was how US senators can have allergies with global effects .. but I am not pretentious

To quote sigber:
"Wrong. Why do you keep deliberately spreading misinformation?"

You should learn to read, first.

 

[krabapple]

Especially when you consider that (even among those with superlative hearing) sensitivity to ultrasonic frequencies goes down rapidly as frequency goes up. Even those with the best possible hearing have a remote-at-best chance of hearing the difference.

Ah, but if you blast a 30kHz tone directly at your head at 100dB, by golly you'll be sensitive to it.

If you're 23.

Maybe.

 

[Mnyb]

.. Op have not gotten my point yet , even if there exist an corner case of special people able to hear >20kHz at >100dB spl when the tweeter is blasting directly down your ear canal does not make it a very high priority for real life hifi and would not any make tangible differences , mainly because the levels of said content in real music relative to the other content in the music are such that it will never reach audibility ( or blast directly down the ear canal ) .

First .

Order your KEF blades or Genelec main monitors perlisten or Magicos of choice .

Get a multiple sub arrays .

Get some serious DSP capabilities to integrate the stuff .

Consult with acousticians to build the perfect listening room with perfect room treatment .

Sit in the perfect listening position .

Make some downsampled version of 2L or AIX recordings to compare with the original files .

ABX .

Get back to us if you get clear positive results

 

[lashto]

Wrong. Why do you keep deliberately spreading misinformation?

The above is one of the latest & 'greatest' classD amps. Distortion starts to increase at 5kHz already and by 15kHz we have a ~75 SINAD amp. At 20kHz and higher it's even worse.
According to the experts, that not some temporary fluke but a serious limitation of the classD tech because the NFB just cannot work that well at high(er) frequencies. So, it is not going to change anytime soon.

It does not even matter if that distortion is audible or not ... AFAICS, it is technically 100% true that classD "can't even do 20kHz properly".
So .. where is that "misinformation"?

 

[lashto]

Apologies for any misunderstanding @lashto - I'm NOT learning anything from you. Contribution from other (very patient) members are instructive.

.. and I am still glad for you

 

[Julf]

According to the experts, that not some temporary fluke but a serious limitation of the classD tech because the NFB just cannot work that well at high(er) frequencies.

What experts would that be?

 

[Julf]

It does not even matter if that distortion is audible or not ... AFAICS, it is technically 100% true that classD "can't even do 20kHz properly".

Only by some weird alternative definition, not related to audio, of "can't do properly".

 

[lashto]

... but I'm not aware of mechanism how to make ultrasound ads.

I only mentioned those "ultrasonic ads" as a theoretical posibility. Looks like I was wrong, that stuff was already done and apparently it's 'everywhere':
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/your-devices-listening-how-marketers-using-ultrasonic-pescetto
https://www.zdnet.com/article/hundreds-of-apps-are-using-ultrasonic-sounds-to-track-your-ad-habits/
It is not exacly what I had in mind but pretty close..

 

[EJ3]

I only mentioned those "ultrasonic ads" as a theoretical posibility. Looks like I was wrong, that stuff was already done and apparently it's 'everywhere':
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/your-devices-listening-how-marketers-using-ultrasonic-pescetto
https://www.zdnet.com/article/hundreds-of-apps-are-using-ultrasonic-sounds-to-track-your-ad-habits/
It is not exacly what I had in mind but pretty close..

Why I don't have Alexa, Siri, TV's & many other things in my home. Just the i Phones and desktop computer is more than enough.

 

[sigbergaudio]

It does not even matter if that distortion is audible or not ... AFAICS, it is technically 100% true that classD "can't even do 20kHz properly".
So .. where is that "misinformation"?

The misinformation is in the fact that this only looks bad because the rest of the frequency range is so good. A normal class B or class A amplifier with 75-80dB in the entire frequency range is considered perfectly acceptable and no one is going "this can't do sound properly". The average SINAD of all the amplifiers ever tested on this site is below 80dB.

 

[Mnyb]

. ...for example the 2nd harmonic of that 15kHz is 30kHz down 75dB compared to the signal ie inaudible .