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Should we record and mix without ANY reverberations?

Just wanted to thank you for asking this. It's an important question and one that's not so simple to answer.

Closely related:

Notice that listening to live acoustic music performed outdoors sounds meh, weak, disappointing. But the same musicians doing the same music in a good concert hall sounds fantastic! How come?
Not always, it depends.
Imagine the most anechoic there is, a band playing in a parade on the street through all these bodies.
Done right can be staggering.

Not true for a small ensemble of course.
 
It's true that there is a choice about reverb level in the process.
Wide (controlled) directivity will do this even in less naturally reverberant spaces.

But I don't know why we would solely give that control to the end user listening to FM radio in a car.
 
So here's a shower thought I had just now:

If sound reproduction is about re-creating live performances -- say, a violin performance -- shouldn't we then just record the performance as anechoic and "dry" as possible and leave out any natural or synthetic reverberance? Because, when playing back the performance (in a living room), the actual room acoustics should add the necessary and by definition lifelike reverberation, resulting in a true "as in the room" feeling as possible.

When looking at it like this, it seems actually weird to record a performance in a large hall and then replay that back in a small room, expecting it to sound holographic, meanwhile you're adding all sorts of reverberations and resonances to the original sound signal.

Obviously you don't get the effect of feeling like you're in a concert hall. But wouldn't it be more impressive when an orchestral performance feels like it's playing in your living room instead of simulating an environment?

Has anyone done this?
I’d like to hear such a recording. Similarly, I prefer Grateful Dead soundboard recordings over live or audience tapes. The soundboard recording, like your anechoic recording, has nothing but the instruments and vocals. They have a clean, naked sound that you can amplify to reference levels but somehow don’t sound loud or crowded.
 
So here's a shower thought I had just now:

If sound reproduction is about re-creating live performances -- say, a violin performance -- shouldn't we then just record the performance as anechoic and "dry" as possible and leave out any natural or synthetic reverberance? Because, when playing back the performance (in a living room), the actual room acoustics should add the necessary and by definition lifelike reverberation, resulting in a true "as in the room" feeling as possible.

When looking at it like this, it seems actually weird to record a performance in a large hall and then replay that back in a small room, expecting it to sound holographic, meanwhile you're adding all sorts of reverberations and resonances to the original sound signal.

Obviously you don't get the effect of feeling like you're in a concert hall. But wouldn't it be more impressive when an orchestral performance feels like it's playing in your living room instead of simulating an environment?

Has anyone done this?
Interesting question.

I worked in classical, jazz, and 20th-now 21st Century music recording. The in-hall reverberation is highly valued by the live listener in the hall.

The instruments are recorded by a choice of close microphones, far microphones in classic arrays, and room ambience microphones. The classic arrays include Decca Tree, Blumlein, ORTF, add ambisonic and a whole series of immersive arrays. I know people who track rock music and they capture all kinds of room microphones for drums in addition to individual drum close micing.

If you want to hear an instrument dry, it would be like soloing it in a tracking control room. The tracking engineer would do that to detect microphone problems. adjust microphone placement, or detect instrument problems. It in interesting to listen to but not an experience of extended listening pleasure.

Once the data from the original microphones enters the process to consumer release a series of artistic judgements comes into play.

The home listening room does not have the reverb time of a recital hall or a concert hall. So the home listening room cannot substitute for capturing or simulating the echo of a recital hall or a concert hall.

In classical and other genres the recording benefits from echo and pop benefits from slapback, captured or added. Slap back adds the emotion of a live show. That is why artificial echo rooms, plates, springs, and electronic echo are fed with a slight delay.

Here is a suggestion for ear training. There are university research recordings of a solo instrument in an anechoic chamber. Seek out some dry recordings. They would be equivalent to soloing a close mic. Another source is find a way to get invited to sit in to a musician's practice room. AKG used to release a close mic compilation of instruments. Today every microphone maker has close mic guitar recordings. Listen to them both in your room speakers and with in-ear monitors. Then you could play around with adding more echo with DAW software and plugins. There is free DAW software and almost all plugins have a 30 day free period.

Report back on your research.
 
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I'm aware of that, but hasn't that more to do with expectations? You've almost always, exclusively heard orchestras in big rooms/halls, so your expectations are that it should sound a certain way. Removing the hall means you can experience how it would sound when a performer, or group, or large group would sound like if they were there.
Sure, but a full orchestra playing in an average-size living room would sound horrible.
 
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Not always, it depends.
Imagine the most anechoic there is, a band playing in a parade on the street through all these bodies.
Done right can be staggering.

Not true for a small ensemble of course.
I think this situation is not even remotely anechoic actually. Anechoic sound, even approximately, is never really experienced in the real world.
 
Just wanted to thank you for asking this. It's an important question and one that's not so simple to answer.

Closely related:

Notice that listening to live acoustic music performed outdoors sounds meh, weak, disappointing. But the same musicians doing the same music in a good concert hall sounds fantastic! How come?
That also is highly dependent on what is behind (and around) the musicians:
A 200 ft. wide, 100 ft. tall cliff 20 feet behind them sounds vastly different than if they are out in the open on 6 acres of flat land with no trees.
 

Should we record and mix without ANY reverberations?​


My question would be: Who, exactly - is "We" ? What subsection, no pun intended - of the Recording Profession, if even that, is this about? Honest inquiry.
 
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Should we record and mix without ANY reverberations?

My question would be: Who, exactly - is "We" ? What subsection, no pun intended - of the Recording Profession, if even that, is this about? Honest inquiry.
Didn't think about it that way. I just assumed he had a mouse in his pocket.
 
Tangentially, I heard Verdi's Requiem at the Odeon of Herodes Atticus in Athens a couple years ago. An outdoor space with little reverb, which makes sense if its original purpose was to make a human voice distinctly audible. The concert was fun but weird. You heard everything exactly once, almost no echoes. A very different sound from a large hall.

So yeah, a lot of music is written for particular kinds of performance spaces.
 
... I prefer Grateful Dead soundboard recordings over live or audience tapes. The soundboard recording, like your anechoic recording, has nothing but the instruments and vocals. They have a clean, naked sound that you can amplify to reference levels but somehow don’t sound loud or crowded.
Rest assured that the soundboard output included reverb. Maybe not not on the bass or the kick drum, but there's certainly reverb on the vocals and most of the drums. Yeah, there's little room sound (or should I say arena sound), but it's not dry.

Dan Healy had a lot of "interesting" ideas about live sound, but mixing the vocals dry was not one of them. Plus, he was quite well aware that the board tapes would be heard by many people and mixed accordingly. Likely a separate matrix out for the distribution amp that fed the tape decks, and not just a tap of whatever he was sending to the PA..

But you're right that the board tape will sound better than an "audience tape". For some values of "better".
 
Tangentially, I heard Verdi's Requiem at the Odeon of Herodes Atticus in Athens a couple years ago. An outdoor space with little reverb, which makes sense if its original purpose was to make a human voice distinctly audible. The concert was fun but weird. You heard everything exactly once, almost no echoes. A very different sound from a large hall.
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There are so many reflections coming from, well, everywhere other than the ceiling that the comparison to an anechoic chamber is not even close. Yes, it sounded different than a usual concert hall, but it's far from anechoic. Probably a great performance space.
 
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There are so many reflections coming from, well, everywhere other than the ceiling that the comparison to an anechoic chamber is not even close. Yes, it sounded different than a usual concert hall, but it's far from anechoic. Probably a great performance space.
Watch and learn, children, because this is peak ASR posting: absolute certainty about something you've never heard.
 
Speaking from the recording side it's much harder to play/sing with too little or too much reverb.

Not really. Musicians regularly sing/play under conditions where at their position there is very little reverb, and occasionally too much as well. They are used to that. It is much more difficult if there is delayed reverb/echoes at play, or you do not hear yourself at all (that is where you find a lot of musicians using headphones or IEM).

If you've ever recorded a live performance from your normal audience location you've probably noticed that the reverb that sounds wonderful live, coming from all directions, sounds artificial when reproduced from a pair of speakers in your living room (or with headphones).

That is mostly because the directional information of all parts of the reverb gets lost with conventional stereo recordings, so all the reverb from all angles, which sounds natural in the concert hall, gets summed up from the stereo speakers and that feels wrong to our brain. So it is clearly a problem of loudspeaker stereophony.

If you repeat this experiment with either a dummy head/binaural mic and playback on calibrated headphones, or a multi-channel main mic arrangement, for example for Dolby Atmos, the result is very different. It sounds surprisingly ´realistic´ in terms of imaging (which does not make a perfect recording, though).

Pro live recordings usually have the microphone around the conductor's location/distance or closer. O with rock music everything is close-mic'd and multitracked

You are referring to a main mic arrangement for classical recordings. This is meant to capture a ´total picture´ of the reverb soundfield, and is usually placed far away from the floor in order to maximize first reflection delay, and at a place to ensure a proper ratio of direct and indirect sound. Which in many concert venues is further away from the instruments than the conductor (the conductor actually has a pretty distorted balance with instruments like violins, celli and brass overly dominant).

Close-mic´ing and multitrack is in classical recordings as common as in rock. These are called spot microphones, and they are gradually added to the signal of the main microphone to ensure clarity and restore balance between the instruments and between direct sound vs. indirect sound alike.

Somewhere I read that listening in an anechoic chamber can give the perception of the sound coming from inside your head,

Have tried conducting listening tests under anechoic conditions and cannot really confirm this. In some cases of very ´dry´ recordings this can happen, but with a minimum of meaningful reverb in the recording, you usually get a stereo imaging even under anechoic conditions, it is just very constrained in width and depth, with drastically reduced perceived proximity. So it is pretty likely that voices sound as ´coming from directly in front of your nose´, not really from inside your head like with IEM.

Notice that listening to live acoustic music performed outdoors sounds meh, weak, disappointing.

Cannot really agree to that. I have heard numerous un-amplified classical performances under free-field conditions, with the most extreme being a performance of Gluck´s ´Orphée et Euridyce´, featuring a contralto, in a courtyard of a Rokoko palace, as well as Orffs´s ´Carmina Burana´ in a gorge (!), and was pretty amazed.

Rathen.jpeg


You have to get used to it, though, as our brain notices a contradiction between reduced SPL with almost no lower frequencies (which usually indicates sound sources further apart) and close to no reflections at all (which signals our brain that instruments and voices are very very close to our ears).
 
Watch and learn, children, because this is peak ASR posting: absolute certainty about something you've never heard.
If there are surfaces anywhere nearby that aren't 1m+ thick acoustic absorbers, then yes it's absolutely certain the sound isn't truly anechoic. Nobody is saying the sound isn't very dry and unusual compared to a normal auditorium there, but anechoic means effectively no reflected sound at all.

Similarly, If someone tells you about the coldest weather they ever experienced on earth, you can with equal confidence assure them it was not absolute zero or even close.
 
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