Should more emphasis be given to speaker (& driver) size in reviews + what is the ethos of this site?

[tuga]

Two things I've been thinking about:

1. What is the ethos of this site? I've not come across a mission statement as such for this website (maybe there is one and I've missed it). Is it a repository of technical information for people who already understand FR, dispersion, distortion graphs and so on, so that they can see the measurements and immediately know what they're looking at, no extra guidance needed; or, is it also here to educate people who either do not understand or have a minimal understanding of these things, so that they may cut through the mystery/snake-oil/salesmanship when purchasing audio products and make purchases based on scientific understanding (measurements), translated by those that do understand it, into something the layman can digest.

2. Presuming the latter from above, is enough emphasis given to speaker (and mid-bass driver) size in reviews?

There are speakers that measure very well and are much lauded, but their bass reproduction (frequency and SPL) are very limited, some of the most favoured speakers under $1500 are so limited in SPL and particularly bass reproduction that they would struggle to fill a room 4x4m with sound that could provide a modest party for two people.

My layman experience (so far) is that I have not yet come across a 5" or 6" driver, however expensive or low in distortion, that can do what an 8" (or larger) can do in the bass department. This does not apply to all speakers with 8"+ drivers, of course, but there is, except in extremis, a much greater ease with which bass frequencies are played through larger drivers. Smaller speakers just tend to sound like they are struggling sooner, whether this shows in the measurements or not.

I can't explain why this is. I suppose it could have to do with many things, including distortion arising from playing midrange frequencies from a cone making large excursions (compared to one with a greater area), more noise from ports/non-linearity elsewhere, smaller baffle/cone size e.t.c.

Yes, smaller speakers can be supplemented by a subwoofer, but which subwoofer in what configuration? If the speakers don't come as a package (satellites + sub) then how can we know what benefit comes from a sub; if they cannot be purchased and tested as a set on the Klippel NFS, we cannot say in any scientific way what benefit will be gained from any hypothetical subwoofer.

TL;DR for question 2:

Small speakers with limited SPL/bass are being given precedence over larger speakers with somewhat greater non-linearity (in FR, for example), but much greater bass and SPL capabilities. Save the very smallest rooms, the larger speakers will often present as audibly better speakers, because they produce more of the lower frequency range and at louder levels. Smaller speakers are being 'saved' by the addition of a hypothetical subwoofer, but this is not a given and is artificially (unscientifically?) boosting speakers that are limited in their capabilities (but more linear within said limits) above their true position, when used as standalone speakers.

Without a sub and outside of the smallest rooms, these speakers are not so impressive. Does the typical ASR reader understand this and is enough emphasis being put on this in reviews?

There are many measurable parameters which combined can give a good idea of how a speaker performs, and Amir publishes plots of most of those.
I suggest that you familiarise yourself with their meaning and how they correlate with your preference, ignore recommendations and the Speaker Preference Ratings, and also subjective listening reports from magazines and influencers.

 

[Plcamp]

I don’t know what to think about bass distortion (except that lower is better).

I don’t believe -115 db SINAD defines bass transparency, but I would like to know what number does do that, and how far off that target the state of the art actually is.

Has any research been done to define human detectable distortion levels under 200 hz?

 

[Digby]

There are many measurable parameters which combined can give a good idea of how a speaker performs, and Amir publishes plots of most of those.

Performs, yes, but what about how it sounds? Can anyone read the graphs and know not only which speakers perform well, but how they will subjectively sound to the ear and if they will suit their own preferences.

A number of times in his subjective testing Amir has been surprised about how well he liked a speaker, even when they have had relatively significant non-linearities. If he is not infrequently surprised like this, as someone who has been through this rodeo a thousand times before, what chance we mere mortals?

I suggest that you familiarise yourself with their meaning and how they correlate with your preference

I'd love to, but it seems so complex given all the different factors involved, that I might be more successful trying my hand at water divination.

I am basically operating on intuition and rules of thumb. They aren't leading me too far astray, but you can hardly call the approach scientific.

 

[tuga]

Performs, yes, but what about how it sounds? Can anyone read the graphs and know not only which speakers perform well, but how they will subjectively sound to the ear and if they will suit their own preferences.

Graphs are indicative of performance or accuracy. I use them to shortlist and then I listen to determine what I like and dislike, what works well in my room, etc.

Graphs and listening are complementary tools.

 

[tuga]

I'd love to, but it seems so complex given all the different factors involved, that I might be more successful trying my hand at water divination.

I am basically operating on intuition and rules of thumb. They aren't leading me too far astray, but you can hardly call the approach scientific.

Using graphs is the difference between the randomness of a trial-and-error approach and having some control over our choices or an upgrade path, unlike reviews which are generally a report on personal preference or just plan advertising with a more humane presentation.

 

[Jim Shaw]

Maybe, but it is the right kind of argumentative. Science is all about argumentation, no? I'm not trying to be personal about Amir or anything. I would prefer it was seen as...stimulating, rather than argumentative

Whenever I pose these difficult questions, I'm after stimulation. A little selfish, I know, but where would all be without a little stimulation now and then?


Is that really true though? In general there is a definite and strong correlation between driver (and speaker) size and SPL, even in high frequencies (horn loading), the exceptions prove the rule.

I used the term argumentative within its Merriam Webster's defined use:

Definition of argumentative​

1: given to argument: tending to argue: having or showing a tendency to disagree or argue with other people in an angry way: DISPUTATIOUS He became argumentative when confronted with the allegation. an argumentative temperament… had been a pigheaded, argumentative, irascible, and unlikable man …— Colleen McCullough
.....

As to speaker diameter, it is only one of several measures of the SPL capability, and in the home playback world, a minor one. Diameter is often 'swamped' by other factors, like material, mass, cone break-up resistance, enclosure, magnetic field character, and the voice coil within it. While it is the simplest of factors to see at first glance, diameter is not the more important. There might possibly be reasons why large-diameter drivers have become a minority in the population of home playback gear. And one of those reasons probably isn't the higher cost of a little more paper and aluminum.

I'll let you argue that out with yourself. Let me know if anyone wins it.

 

[Digby]

Jim you are an interesting character, you seem to take offense to my probing questions/statements, as a number of times you have made motions that I should just keep quiet. I don't see how they are harmful. I'm trying to increase my understanding in the same way as anyone else and I'm not being personal, so what is the problem?

There is a line that has to be pushed with any thread to get engagement. If I say everything is wonderful and awesome, probably that won't get many replies (nor is it true, not always anyway), so yes, sometimes a thread's language is a little uh....spicy, while remaining civil, to get people involved.

You're not required to join the thread if you don't want to, if I step out of line I'm sure the mods will have something to say about it. I'd rather not be tutored by a fellow member on what I may and may not say, though.

As to speaker diameter, it is only one of several measures of the SPL capability, and in the home playback world, a minor one. Diameter is often 'swamped' by other factors, like material, mass, cone break-up resistance, enclosure, magnetic field character, and the voice coil within it.

According to you, but this is just your opinion and you are as welcome to it as I am to mine. I don't see how the above statement is less argumentative than much of what I say. These is no 'in my humble opinion' attached to it, but why should there be. I know it is your opinion, that is fine - where we may differ is in any understanding of these things as the sole facts of the matter.

1: given to argument: tending to argue: having or showing a tendency to disagree or argue with other people in an angry way: DISPUTATIOUS He became argumentative when confronted with the allegation. an argumentative temperament… had been a pigheaded, argumentative, irascible, and unlikable man …— Colleen McCullough

This is getting a little personal, no?

Anyway, isn't the above the definition of every great scientist ever? One man's argumentative is another's Copernicus. Don't worry, I'm not putting myself in the same category by any means, but it serves to make a good point.

 

[Sokel]

I'll take the chance to ask (about speakers):
What defines that we call "big sound"?

For example (and it's one of my sins to not care about right or wrong sound as far as I enjoy it) I really-really like how my friends massive blumenhofers perform in his big room.I mean they don't only look,they also sound big,you absolutely dive in it.

Is it the volume of speaker and size of drivers?Is it the room (more than 150 m²)? Is it the combination?
I do not know how to describe it and I suspect there's maybe lots of wrongs and flaws,but those things are so overwhelming that even if you sit to critical listen you forget it!

Is there a reason or is just pure sentiment there?

 

[SKBubba]

1. What is the ethos of this site? I've not come across a mission statement as such for this website (maybe there is one and I've missed it). Is it a repository of technical information for people who already understand FR, dispersion, distortion graphs and so on, so that they can see the measurements and immediately know what they're looking at, no extra guidance needed; or, is it also here to educate people who either do not understand or have a minimal understanding of these things, so that they may cut through the mystery/snake-oil/salesmanship when purchasing audio products and make purchases based on scientific understanding (measurements), translated by those that do understand it, into something the layman can digest.

Audio Reference Library

Formal educational posts and articles on science and engineering of digital audio. Only site admin can create new threads. But anyone can comment.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[mj30250]

I'll take the chance to ask (about speakers):
What defines that we call "big sound"?

For example (and it's one of my sins to not care about right or wrong sound as far as I enjoy it) I really-really like how my friends massive blumenhofers perform in his big room.I mean they don't only look,they also sound big,you absolutely dive in it.

Is it the volume of speaker and size of drivers?Is it the room (more than 150 m²)? Is it the combination?
I do not know how to describe it and I suspect there's maybe lots of wrongs and flaws,but those things are so overwhelming that even if you sit to critical listen you forget it!

Is there a reason or is just pure sentiment there?

There are surely factors involved beyond the sheer visual scale of the speakers, but don't discount how our vision system can dramatically influence us.

I try this "trick" sometimes. In my living room, I have some very competent bookshelf speakers flanking the TV, but due to severe space constraints, I am limited to a quite small center channel (far smaller than the bookshelves), which sits underneath the display. When playing 2 channel music and it's sounding particularly good, I will on occasion (and not really on purpose) imagine that all of the sound is coming from the small center speaker. All of a sudden, the soundstage seems to collapse and everything sounds more constrained. Once I "untrick" myself and snap back to the bookshelf speakers, everything sounds suitably big and pleasant again. Obviously, nothing actually changed beyond my brain. It's certainly strange, but this sort of psychological weirdness impacts us all the time even when we have no conscious sense of it.

At the risk of a crude analogy, imagine you've entered a dark room and are offered the chance to get very intimate with someone who you can't really see. You agree, and things are progressing along happily enough. Then the lights go on...imagine how everything you are feeling would immediately change based on the other person being either dramatically more or less attractive than you expected.

Wait, did I just demonstrate that speaker aesthetics can matter? D'oh!

 

[Sokel]

At the risk of a crude analogy, imagine you've entered a dark room and are offered the chance to get very intimate with someone who you can't really see. You agree, and things are progressing along happily enough. Then the lights go on...imagine how everything you are feeling would immediately change based on the other person being either dramatically more or less attractive than you expected.

Wait, did I just demonstrate that speaker aesthetics can matter? D'oh!

I really enjoyed the metaphor,thank you!

 

[Rednaxela]

Recognisable @mj30250.

I have a similar setup, and when ‘watching’ the speakers at around the 11:00 mark in this video, my bookshelves get six times as large.

Try it if you can. Really cool.

 

[Jim Shaw]

There are surely factors involved beyond the sheer visual scale of the speakers, but don't discount how our vision system can dramatically influence us.

I try this "trick" sometimes. In my living room, I have some very competent bookshelf speakers flanking the TV, but due to severe space constraints, I am limited to a quite small center channel (far smaller than the bookshelves), which sits underneath the display. When playing 2 channel music and it's sounding particularly good, I will on occasion (and not really on purpose) imagine that all of the sound is coming from the small center speaker. All of a sudden, the soundstage seems to collapse and everything sounds more constrained. Once I "untrick" myself and snap back to the bookshelf speakers, everything sounds suitably big and pleasant again. Obviously, nothing actually changed beyond my brain. It's certainly strange, but this sort of psychological weirdness impacts us all the time even when we have no conscious sense of it.

At the risk of a crude analogy, imagine you've entered a dark room and are offered the chance to get very intimate with someone who you can't really see. You agree, and things are progressing along happily enough. Then the lights go on...imagine how everything you are feeling would immediately change based on the other person being either dramatically more or less attractive than you expected.

Wait, did I just demonstrate that speaker aesthetics can matter? D'oh!

I may have posted this before in another thread. In addition to ASR and my ears, here is my complete suite of test equipment for two-channel music. I think it jives with your example. The blinders are leftovers from an old airline journey and the SPL meter is a $20 item at Amazon. I use the SPL meter mostly out of curiosity; I may have absolute pitch but I'm not so well calibrated as to sound level.

 

[Plcamp]

I really enjoyed the metaphor,thank you!

Not sure the crude metaphor fully works…you can’t for example put a paper bag over the head of a speaker and expect as good a result?

 

[Sokel]

I may have posted this before in another thread. In addition to ASR and my ears, here is my complete suite of test equipment for two-channel music. I think it jives with your example. The blinders are leftovers from an old airline journey and the SPL meter is a $20 item at Amazon. I use the SPL meter mostly out of curiosity; I may have absolute pitch but I'm not so well calibrated as to sound level.

In my case with friends speakers I may need a bulletproof jacket and earplugs too,these things can be dangerous with their 98db sensitivity and the mass of air they can move


I can see what you mean,I have tried a lot of blind test,they are useful and save money,I did it with my amps for example.
But as I said before the feeling in front of something big not under test is surely biasing but to a degree,you can physically feel it with your body not the way you feel it with non-horn speakers.And I'm not talking about low frequency of course.

 

[puppet]

^ .. seems to me that the lower mid bass frequencies really wake you up. Smaller drivers lack an authority here.

 

[LuvTheMusic]

In regard to this site, my understanding is that most reviews are of equipment that is loaned by forum members/readers or, in some cases, purchased by Amir. This automatically skews the population of speakers that can or will be reviewed: larger speakers are difficult and expensive to ship for loan, and regardless of how generous a host Amir is, we hardly can expect him to pony up for expensive speakers. And let's not forget that one would need a hoist and winch to get some of those speakers into position for Klippel measurements!

 

[sq225917]

What more needs to said about speaker and driver size that quoting the specs. "It's a 3 way coax 6" midbass in a 15l cabinet" job done. Nothing more needs saying, drive unit size is no arbiter of quality, and anyone who doesn't know surface area - displacement- sensitivity = max spl need only read the breakdowns and primers littered across the site.

 

[Koeitje]

You can just look at the graphs, read Amir's conclusion or @MZKM preference score. Those all give great information about the bass performance.

 

[Duke]

At the risk of a crude analogy, imagine you've entered a dark room and are offered the chance to get very intimate with someone who you can't really see. You agree, and things are progressing along happily enough. Then the lights go on...imagine how everything you are feeling would immediately change based on the other person being either dramatically more or less attractive than you expected.

I have a friend who holds patents for loudspeaker design who still squirms uncomfortably whenever I use the term "three-way". Apparently those words mean something very different to him!