Should I upgrade my Dual CS 5000 turntable with a MC cartridge or get a Rega P6 with same cartridge?

[anmpr1]

Addendum: The Sao Win tonearm was certainly 'based' upon the Castagna, however there were differences. Notably, the headshell and counterweight design, plus the addition of an anti-skating mech. Below are photos of the arm in his record player.

 

[dlaloum]

The Revox Linatrack, with its linear tracking ultra low mass, and super short tonearm, uses (used?) a unipivot design too - it is then stabilised with a magnetic system - and then lightly damped with a dab of grease at the unipivot.

As I recall there were also designs for more sophisiticated magnetic damped versions of that arm - but those never went into production.

 

[Revelation Sound]

I received the Rega 6 with the Ania Pro cartridge today. I have been comparing it to my Dual CS 5000 turntable. Playing Flowers in the Dirt by Paul McCartney, the Dual sounds 2 dimensional while the Rega 6 has more of a 3-dimensional sound. What makes it more 3D? The reverbs are heard better, and the music has more front to back. In going to David Bowie's Lets Dance, the bass is tighter, and more background details are brought forward. I really like what I am hearing so far. Its still pretty early in my testing. The difference between the two turntables depends on the music. Music from the 80's moving forward, you hear more of the details on the recordings. Older music from the 60's, some of the extra detail is not there, because it was not recorded with the fine details. However with Monkey Man by the Rolling Stones, the Dual though it sounds good, the vocals and piano are little recessed. The bass guitar is a little boomy in comparison to the Rega. 6. Micks vocals are a little more refined on the Rega 6.

The tone arm lifter feels very high end, very good design, and material used. The turntable has the one quirk that other people have mentioned. The noise the belt makes when it first starts moving. It is odd that the turntable does not turn off when I move the tone arm all the way to the right on its holder like it does with the Dual. So you always have to turn off the power supply to stop the turntable from spinning.

 

[dlaloum]

The Ania Pro cartridge is well suited to the Rega arm... it won't do as well on the Dual...
Low mass arms require high compliance cartridges (sub 1.5g VTF spec)

At this point, assuming the Dual is still running with the Grado cartridge, there are far too many variables to be able to say what is the main cause of difference... it isn't so much a matter of which is better, in terms of TT and Arm, as that they are substantially different in design - and require differing cartridges to "shine".

It is much easier nowadays to get cartridges to suit the Rega, than the Dual... current fashion is for higher mass arms, with lower compliance cartridges.

 

[Revelation Sound]

I just played Steve Winwood "Roll with it" on both turntables. The bass on the Dual was too strong and unclear. The Rega provided a much tighter bass and a more open sound with every detail being heard. I think the Dual would need a much better cartridge to compete with the Rega. Of course, one channel cuts out on my Dual every once in a while. If I wiggle the connection, it comes back.

 

[Angsty]

I just played Steve Winwood "Roll with it" on both turntables. The bass on the Dual was too strong and unclear. The Rega provided a much tighter bass and a more open sound with every detail being heard. I think the Dual would need a much better cartridge to compete with the Rega. Of course, one channel cuts out on my Dual every once in a while. If I wiggle the connection, it comes back.

I cited this article in another thread, but I underestimated the impact of the tonearm/turntable versus the cartridge before I upgraded. I found that my each of my turntables has an “upper limit” to which improving the cartridge improves sound quality.

Moving to a better designed and built turntable (that is compatible with the cartridge) raises the upper limit on possible sound quality improvement. The better turntable will have a lower noise floor, more accurate speed, lower wow and flutter, and better damped resonant modes in the tonearm.

Like most things audio, I’m sure that there are declining returns as the turntable gets more expensive. Your Rega is probably close to that point of declining returns, whereas the Dual may be further back on the curve.

Why choose an MM cartridge? | Lejonklou

 

[guenthi_r]

I have a Dual CS 5000 turntable that I have had for over 25 plus years. Its rock solid, no issues, but I have a MM Grado Cartridge on it. I'm thinking about either upgrading it with a MC Ania Pro cartridge or upgrading to the Rega P6 with the same Ania Pro cartridge. I will say the Dual CS 5000 platter has a nice separation from the plinth. In addition, I purchased as Iso Acoustic Zen platform for my turntable to help reduce vibration from the stereo stand when walking in the room. I have a Parasound phono preamp by the way.

If I stay with my Dual my turntable, the Ania Pro cartridge is $1,200 roughly. I would pay the stereo store to install it and make sure the skate and balance is correct. If I go with the P6, the cost is about $2,600.

Which option would you recommend I take and why?

Thanks

It's hard to get a better turntable. the cs 5000 is very good!

 

[Angsty]

It's hard to get a better turntable. the cs 5000 is very good!

Dual CS 5000 Turntable Review price specs - Hi-Fi Classic

www.hifi-classic.net

 

[dlaloum]

Dual CS 5000 Turntable Review price specs - Hi-Fi Classic

www.hifi-classic.net

If this was being sold new today it would be a $5000+ turntable

They weren't cheap in 1985 (circa AU$1000 if my memory serves...) you can work out what $1k in 85 is equivalent to today.

It was not a "no holds barred" attempt at ultra-performance - but was a very well regarded high end turntable - and still is (assuming that it is performing to spec / has been maintained).

Unlike the earlier duals it replaced it has a mid mass arm, about the same as the SL1200mk2 - so easier to match to current lower compliance cartridges than the earlier duals.

I think it highly unlikely you would find a better TT under $2000 new....

Used - well you can find bargains.... people who don't realise how good their CS5000 is, have been known to sell "dad's old TT" for chump change.

 

[Angsty]

If this was being sold new today it would be a $5000+ turntable

The US Bureau of Labor Statistics Inflation Calculator puts US$400 (from the article) in 1985 at US$1,135 today.

So, the Dual would be competitive in the market with the Rega P6 (US$1595), minus the cartridge. The OP's comparison seems like a fair match and the P6 is the better-sounding table, even though age is a factor. If you want to get closer in price, the Rega P3 is US$1,125. However, I think the P6 is more comparable in relative market positioning upon introduction.

The review stats show that it would not be competitive with a US$4300 Technics SL-1200G today.

I think the OP made a fine choice for a turntable; kudos!

 

[dlaloum]

The US Bureau of Labor Statistics Inflation Calculator puts US$400 (from the article) in 1985 at US$1,135 today.

They cost double that "down under".... but that was par for the course are the time.

 

[board]

I received the Rega 6 with the Ania Pro cartridge today. I have been comparing it to my Dual CS 5000 turntable. Playing Flowers in the Dirt by Paul McCartney, the Dual sounds 2 dimensional while the Rega 6 has more of a 3-dimensional sound. What makes it more 3D? The reverbs are heard better, and the music has more front to back. In going to David Bowie's Lets Dance, the bass is tighter, and more background details are brought forward. I really like what I am hearing so far. Its still pretty early in my testing. The difference between the two turntables depends on the music. Music from the 80's moving forward, you hear more of the details on the recordings. Older music from the 60's, some of the extra detail is not there, because it was not recorded with the fine details. However with Monkey Man by the Rolling Stones, the Dual though it sounds good, the vocals and piano are little recessed. The bass guitar is a little boomy in comparison to the Rega. 6. Micks vocals are a little more refined on the Rega 6.

The tone arm lifter feels very high end, very good design, and material used. The turntable has the one quirk that other people have mentioned. The noise the belt makes when it first starts moving. It is odd that the turntable does not turn off when I move the tone arm all the way to the right on its holder like it does with the Dual. So you always have to turn off the power supply to stop the turntable from spinning.
View attachment 272607

The best way to compare the two, if you're able to do this, really is to make a digital recording of each turntable using the same cartridge on both.
The Rega Ania is a bright cartridge with a big spike around 12-15 kHz, which will provide a lot of detail, air, better sense of reverberation, etc., whereas most Grados have a darker sound, which some people really like.
Although it's possible that you would prefer the P6 with the Ania rather than the Dual with the Ania, doing it as above is the best way to determine it, so you don't just listen to the sound of the cartridge.

 

[WDeranged]

The best way to compare the two, if you're able to do this, really is to make a digital recording of each turntable using the same cartridge on both.
The Rega Ania is a bright cartridge with a big spike around 12-15 kHz, which will provide a lot of detail, air, better sense of reverberation, etc., whereas most Grados have a darker sound, which some people really like.
Although it's possible that you would prefer the P6 with the Ania rather than the Dual with the Ania, doing it as above is the best way to determine it, so you don't just listen to the sound of the cartridge.

A digital recording is an excellent way of comparing. The time it takes to change a component makes proper a/b tests impossible. I've rejected a few styluses for stuff I could only truly hear (and see) by directly comparing on my monitors.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Seeings how you can’t change the arm on the Dual stick with MM.

 

[ivanj]

If this was being sold new today it would be a $5000+ turntable

They weren't cheap in 1985 (circa AU$1000 if my memory serves...) you can work out what $1k in 85 is equivalent to today.

It was not a "no holds barred" attempt at ultra-performance - but was a very well regarded high end turntable - and still is (assuming that it is performing to spec / has been maintained).

Unlike the earlier duals it replaced it has a mid mass arm, about the same as the SL1200mk2 - so easier to match to current lower compliance cartridges than the earlier duals.

I think it highly unlikely you would find a better TT under $2000 new....

Used - well you can find bargains.... people who don't realise how good their CS5000 is, have been known to sell "dad's old TT" for chump change.

Dual CS 5000 Turntable Review price specs - Hi-Fi Classic

www.hifi-classic.net

I concur. If tonearm/turntable designers du jour read the design principles rehearsed in the appended article and implemented them, we would perhaps have some real progress in LP playing.

 

[Angsty]

I concur. If tonearm/turntable designers du jour read the design principles rehearsed in the appended article and implemented them, we would perhaps have some real progress in LP playing.

I’m not so sure that designers have “unlearned” the lessons from earlier as much as I think there is less competition than there was decades earlier. Dual had to compete in a far more crowded field than at a similar price point today. Dual needed to find additional ways to differentiate their deck. That does not mean than every point of differentiation was equally valuable.

For instance, the VTA adjustment on the Dual headshell was novel, but not carried forward to today because it’s less practical than adjustment at the tonearm base. The “SME-type” removable headshell dominates today because of its inherent practicality.