should I upgrade front speaker to 12in bass threeway from 6.5in bass two way?

[derekchan]

hi
I have a 3.1 surround system a pair of jbl4309 as front LR,a center definitive d9 5,25in bass and a 12in subwoofer mk v12+

what is the difference between a pair 6.5in bass 4309 plus a 12in subwoofer for listening music and movie and a 12in bass threeway 4312g for listening music as 2.0 setup?

Do they sound completely difference?

if I upgrade 4309 to 4312g plus mk v12+ for 3.1 movie system, can mrx740 receiver have enough power to driver 12in bass speaker?



Specifications

Description: 3-way 12" studio monitor bookshelf loudspeaker

Low-frequency Transducer: 12" (300mm) pure pulp cone (JW300SW-8)

Mid-frequency Transducer: 5" (125mm) polymer-coated pure pulp cone

(JM125PC-8)

High-frequency Transducer: 1" Magnesium-Aluminum alloy dome

(054ALmg-1)

Frequency Response: 44Hz – 40kHz (-6dB)

Sensitivity: 90dB

Recommended Amplifier Power: 10-200 Watts RMS

Crossover Frequencies: 640Hz, 5kHz

Nominal Impedance: 6 Ohms

Dimensions (H x W x D): 23.5" x 14.25" x 12" (597 x 362 x 305mm)

Weight: 52.4 lbs. (23.8kg) each

• Number of Power Amps​

  7

• Maximum Continuous Output (1% THD) (20Hz - 20kHz, Two Channels Driven @ 8Ω) Channels: 1~5​

  140 W

• Maximum Continuous Output (1% THD) (20Hz - 20kHz, Two Channels Driven @ 6Ω) Channels: 1~5​

  170 W

• Maximum Continuous Output (1% THD) (20Hz - 20kHz, Two Channels Driven @ 8Ω) Channels: Remaining​

  60 W

• Maximum Continuous Output (1% THD) (20Hz - 20kHz, Two Channels Driven @ 6Ω) Channels: Remaining​

  75 W

• Speaker Impedance​

  >4Ω

 

[kharan]

There is absolutely a difference. However, the 4312 isn't the "natural" upgrade tp the 4309 if you like that sound.

Rather the natural upgrade would be the JBL 4349 which comes with a 12" woofer and a compression driver in a horn.

Side note : I don't know why the JBL website is such a pain to navigate, I couldn't find the 4349 until I directly googled it.

 

[Everett T]

hi
I have a 3.1 surround system a pair of jbl4309 as front LR,a center definitive d9 5,25in bass and a 12in subwoofer mk v12+

what is the difference between a pair 6.5in bass 4309 plus a 12in subwoofer for listening music and movie and a 12in bass threeway 4312g for listening music as 2.0 setup?

Do they sound completely difference?

if I upgrade 4309 to 4312g plus mk v12+ for 3.1 movie system, can mrx740 receiver have enough power to driver 12in bass speaker?



Specifications

Description: 3-way 12" studio monitor bookshelf loudspeaker

Low-frequency Transducer: 12" (300mm) pure pulp cone (JW300SW-8)

Mid-frequency Transducer: 5" (125mm) polymer-coated pure pulp cone

(JM125PC-8)

High-frequency Transducer: 1" Magnesium-Aluminum alloy dome

(054ALmg-1)

Frequency Response: 44Hz – 40kHz (-6dB)

Sensitivity: 90dB

Recommended Amplifier Power: 10-200 Watts RMS

Crossover Frequencies: 640Hz, 5kHz

Nominal Impedance: 6 Ohms

Dimensions (H x W x D): 23.5" x 14.25" x 12" (597 x 362 x 305mm)

Weight: 52.4 lbs. (23.8kg) each

• Number of Power Amps​

  7

• Maximum Continuous Output (1% THD) (20Hz - 20kHz, Two Channels Driven @ 8Ω) Channels: 1~5​

  140 W

• Maximum Continuous Output (1% THD) (20Hz - 20kHz, Two Channels Driven @ 6Ω) Channels: 1~5​

  170 W

• Maximum Continuous Output (1% THD) (20Hz - 20kHz, Two Channels Driven @ 8Ω) Channels: Remaining​

  60 W

• Maximum Continuous Output (1% THD) (20Hz - 20kHz, Two Channels Driven @ 6Ω) Channels: Remaining​

  75 W

• Speaker Impedance​

  >4Ω

The 4312 isn't going to give you much lower bass, just more SPL above 60hz. The 4309 has a proven compression driver and proven wave guide geometry. So, IMHO the better design, with better components, and is a better speaker, IMO. If you're moving up to a better speaker and you want deeper bass, I'd spend a little more and get the active AsciLabs C8C.

 

[derekchan]

The 4312 is a 3 way passive Itsn't going to give you much lower bass, just more SPL above 60hz. The 4309 has a proven compression driver and proven wave guide geometry. So, IMHO the better design, with better components, is a better speaker. If you're moving up to a better speaker and you want deeper bass, I'd spend a little more and get the active AsciLabs C8C.

can i ask..
why does 12in bass driver of 4312g can't give deeper bass like a active mk v12+ 12inch subwoofer?

 

[voodooless]

can i ask..
why does 12in bass driver of 4312g can't give deeper bass like a active mk v12+ 12inch subwoofer?

Because one is a subwoofer driver, the other is not. A subwoofer driver is made to handle lots of power and work well with high excursion. The 12" driver in the 4312g is made for clean, extended output and efficiency.

 

[derekchan]

Because one is a subwoofer driver, the other is not. A subwoofer driver is made to handle lots of power and work well with high excursion. The 12" driver in the 4312g is made for clean, extended output and efficiency.

ok got it
can i ask the power handling about av integ receiver ?
i look into the internal transistor component of mrx740,which has poor and less transistor component compared with ATI power tank three channel or Anthem P2 series power amp?

And i am curious if they can able to drive multi channel speaker like s150 mk and jbl 4312g? these speaker has multi driver unit and large size speaker driver.

 

[derekchan]

Because one is a subwoofer driver, the other is not. A subwoofer driver is made to handle lots of power and work well with high excursion. The 12" driver in the 4312g is made for clean, extended output and efficiency.

if you want to have heart punchy and cloth swinging deepest bass for home theater and 2 channel audio
what bookshelf speaker is the best price%value and performance?
i have jbl 4309,definitive d9 and mk v12+ as my audio system,but these bass of speaker can knock the windows but not blow the clothese swinging.
what speaker can do that i mean the speaker of movie theater can make your heart not feeling well?
thank you

 

[Everett T]

can i ask..
why does 12in bass driver of 4312g can't give deeper bass like a active mk v12+ 12inch subwoofer?

@voodooless answered already. If you look at 6" drivers, many companies manufacture a mid bass version and a woofer version that look identical but have different specs. When you look at pro audio speakers with 15" drivers some are down 6db at 50hz but that's the intended usage.

 

[Everett T]

ok got it
can i ask the power handling about av integ receiver ?
i look into the internal transistor component of mrx740,which has poor and less transistor component compared with ATI power tank three channel or Anthem P2 series power amp?

And i am curious if they can able to drive multi channel speaker like s150 mk and jbl 4312g? these speaker has multi driver unit and large size speaker driver.

Those two can definitely be driven by the Anthem. The difference between something like the ATI is the ATI can drive all their channels to full bandwidth without any loss. The MRX can only do a couple of channels before loss starts to show up.

 

[Everett T]

if you want to have heart punchy and cloth swinging deepest bass for home theater and 2 channel audio
what bookshelf speaker is the best price%value and performance?
i have jbl 4309,definitive d9 and mk v12+ as my audio system,but these bass of speaker can knock the windows but not blow the clothese swinging.
what speaker can do that i mean the speaker of movie theater can make your heart not feeling well?
thank you

The chesty bass you feel in is between 40 and 90hz, approximately, and the clothes moving is more infrasonic, below 20hz.

 

[derekchan]

Those two can definitely be driven by the Anthem. The difference between something like the ATI is the ATI can drive all their channels to full bandwidth without any loss. The MRX can only do a couple of channels before loss starts to show up.

how do you know there is loss for mrx if you just look at the spec details of mrx?
if I only driver front L/R and center speaker only, is there any loss ?
Can everyone hear the loss ?Is it very noticeable ?

2.if I want real heart punchy deepest passive bookshelf speaker for frontL/R,what model of speaker is good?
Do I need a standalone power amp to drive it?

 

[derekchan]

The chesty bass you feel in is between 40 and 90hz, approximately, and the clothes moving is more infrasonic, below 20hz.

is this good when compared with junk mrx? if I driver three front L/R and center speaker only, with this power amp to driver front L/R.And internal power amp of mrx to drive center.
can I avoid any loss happen?
my speaker jbl 4309 and center speaker definitive d9 5.25in bass

• channels​

  2

• Power Output RMS (Per Channel) 8Ω​

  225 W

• Power Output RMS (Per Channel) 4Ω​

  400 W

• Power Output RMS (Per Channel) 2Ω​

  600 W

• Power Bandwidth​

  90 kHz (-3 dB at 200 W into 8 ohms)

• Input Sensitivity​

  1.5 Vrms (225 W into 8 Ω)

• Input Impedance​

  10kΩ (RCA), 15kΩ (XLR)

• Voltage Gain​

  29 dB

• Slew Rate​

  30 V/μs

• Frequency Response​

  8Ω = 20 Hz - 20 kHz ± 0.1 dB 4Ω = 20 Hz - 20 kHz ± 0.1 dB 2Ω = 20 Hz - 20 kHz ± 0.2 dB

• Channel Separation​

  n/a

• Crosstalk​

  n/a

• Signal-to-Noise Ratio​

  120 dB (IEC-A, ref. 225 W)

• Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise​

  0.0010% (1 kHz), 0.002% (20 kHz) @ 100 W

• Intermodulation Distortion​

  ITU-R (19 kHz + 20 kHz) 0.0005% @ 100 W SMPTE (60 Hz + 7 kHz) 0.002% @ 100 W

• Damping Factor​

  (20 Hz - 1 kHz) 300

 

[Wolf11Man]

The lower the frequency, the higher the electrical power needed for the same SPL. This is not linear, but more an exponential function, depending on driver cone area. For any amp this means a lot of extra stress at the same average level.
An amp that may sound excellent driving a bookshelf speaker cut at 80Hz, may completely collapse soundwise if you drive a 3-way with a large woofer.
Another important fact, any passive crossover component is making the amps life more complicated.

If you like the sound of your JBL speakers, add a good sub, best two, one at each side, near the bookshelfes.

 

[voodooless]

The chesty bass you feel in is between 40 and 90hz, approximately, and the clothes moving is more infrasonic, below 20hz.

Chest thumb is generally a bit higher, between 90 and 150 Hz. This is also the reason why you rarely get this in home audio: while subwoofers are nice below 80 Hz, the area above is usually still handled by smaller drivers. On top of that, it's right in the middle of the usual SBIR area.

This is where those large 12" JBL speakers would actually have a bit of an advantage.

 

[Wolf11Man]

With PA gear, you get this "thump on the chest" best from a bass bin that hardly reaches deeper than 60-70Hz.
You need quite some midrange cone area to produce this at home. Your usual 6 1/2 midwoofer will not be able to reproduce it.

 

[Waxx]

I actually prefer a 10" woofer for this, it's large enough to have the cone surface that can do that, but it's small enough to go high clean to meet a tweeter like the JBL has. I have some plans to make such a speaker (CD to about 8-900Hz with a 10" woofer), but had no time to actually build it yet. For smaller spaces the 10" can also go low, but for very loud or big spaces, a bigger (12-18") subwoofer (ore more than one) is needed. Again, cone surface is key here again to get a clean uncompressed sub.

A 6.5 can't do that kick in the chest thing at more than a very nearfield distance, and on low volume. It just does not have the cone surface needed in my opion. It can sound very good, but will have compression while doing that and sound restrained. If you use several 6.5 woofers it will be better. But a bigger cone is always better for this. If you can avoid it's disadvantages (bigger cabinet, beaming lower in frequency), there is no doubt that it's a better choice. It's against the fashion of today (of very small speakers), but Hoffman's Iron Law can not be broken, not even with modern engineering.

 

[Wolf11Man]

You describe the typical 10"+1" top used in PA. You need a very good 10" to do that for HIFI and the compression driver will not be cheap as well.

With a HIFI MTM you can get close to this by using some capable 6.5" or 7" drivers. Amplification is a factor too, you will not make two cones emitt reasonable energy with an 8 Watt triode. Make it active and give each driver a clean 150 Watt for short bursts. Not expensive today.

Both cases will need some serious quality drivers to satisfy. There is a reason why you can get a 6.5" midwoofer for 12$ and some cost 200$.

 

[Everett T]

is this good when compared with junk mrx? if I driver three front L/R and center speaker only, with this power amp to driver front L/R.And internal power amp of mrx to drive center.
can I avoid any loss happen?
my speaker jbl 4309 and center speaker definitive d9 5.25in bass

• channels​

  2

• Power Output RMS (Per Channel) 8Ω​

  225 W

• Power Output RMS (Per Channel) 4Ω​

  400 W

• Power Output RMS (Per Channel) 2Ω​

  600 W

• Power Bandwidth​

  90 kHz (-3 dB at 200 W into 8 ohms)

• Input Sensitivity​

  1.5 Vrms (225 W into 8 Ω)

• Input Impedance​

  10kΩ (RCA), 15kΩ (XLR)

• Voltage Gain​

  29 dB

• Slew Rate​

  30 V/μs

• Frequency Response​

  8Ω = 20 Hz - 20 kHz ± 0.1 dB 4Ω = 20 Hz - 20 kHz ± 0.1 dB 2Ω = 20 Hz - 20 kHz ± 0.2 dB

• Channel Separation​

  n/a

• Crosstalk​

  n/a

• Signal-to-Noise Ratio​

  120 dB (IEC-A, ref. 225 W)

• Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise​

  0.0010% (1 kHz), 0.002% (20 kHz) @ 100 W

• Intermodulation Distortion​

  ITU-R (19 kHz + 20 kHz) 0.0005% @ 100 W SMPTE (60 Hz + 7 kHz) 0.002% @ 100 W

• Damping Factor​

  (20 Hz - 1 kHz) 300

It appears to be good based on the specs, what amp is it, and has it been 3rd party reviewed? Also, the MRX isn't really junk, it's typical of AVRs today.with high channel counts.

 

[derekchan]

It appears to be good based on the specs, what amp is it, and has it been 3rd party reviewed? Also, the MRX isn't really junk, it's typical of AVRs today.with high channel counts.

can I ask ...
how do you know the mrx will have bandwidth loss when seven internal amplifier driving seven speakers?

• Number of Power Amps​

  7

• Maximum Continuous Output (1% THD) (20Hz - 20kHz, Two Channels Driven @ 8Ω) Channels: 1~5​

  140 W

• Maximum Continuous Output (1% THD) (20Hz - 20kHz, Two Channels Driven @ 6Ω) Channels: 1~5​

  170 W

• Maximum Continuous Output (1% THD) (20Hz - 20kHz, Two Channels Driven @ 8Ω) Channels: Remaining​

  60 W

• Maximum Continuous Output (1% THD) (20Hz - 20kHz, Two Channels Driven @ 6Ω) Channels: Remaining​

  75 W

• Speaker Impedance​

  >4Ω

how many power output if just connect front L/R and center speaker? These three speaker can drive by 170w per channel?

There is multi channel power amp like seven channel ATI power amp,Why does ATI multi power amp not have bandwidth loss but mrx Does?

 

[derekchan]

It appears to be good based on the specs, what amp is it, and has it been 3rd party reviewed? Also, the MRX isn't really junk, it's typical of AVRs today.with high channel counts.

The MRX740 was able to deliver 89.3 watts/ch at 1% THD and 85 watts/ch at 0.1% THD with 5CH driven from its Class AB amplifiers configured for the bed channels. We see about 86dB SINAD (.005% THD+N) from the amp section at 30 watts/ch which is a very good distortion result.

IF the mrx drive 5 bed speaker at the same time, the each bed speaker 5.1 only share 85watts
but I am not sure if it is full bandwidth 20hz-20khz without any loss