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Should I sell my vinyl rig?

tomtoo

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But that's still a strange concept of "rational."


Rationality is essentially the coherence between your desires beliefs and actions. That is, you have a desire/goal and rationality is how you reason toward what action is likely to achieve that goal, based on your beliefs.

So if you felt like drinking a can of coke, and you believed the only place in your home where there was a can of coke was in your fridge, then it's a rational act to go to the fridge and get the coke to fulfill that desire.

But if you instead walked outside to your backyard, where you knew there was no coke, to get the coke, THAT would be irrational.

Or if you believed there wasn't a coke in your fridge, but you still went to the fridge to get a coke. THAT would be irrational.

Rational actions are based on fulfilling desires/goals, and all desires are subjective as the starting poine, so you are always doing things "based on what you like/want/desire."

If for instance your goal is to achieve as much sonic accuracy as possible, then that's a value judgement of your own, something you like or want to achieve. Then choosing something like digital sources over vinyl will be the more rational action to achieve that desire. But at bottom, there is not Law Written In To The Fabric Of The Universe that "accuracy is to be sought in music playback sources!" That's a value judgement or personal desire you start with, and others may share.

If your goal is NOT accuracy per se, but that you like some of the aspects of vinyl - the physicality, the artwork, turntables are cool to you, it maybe changes the way you listen etc - then the act of buying a turntable and vinyl is the rational choice. It would be irrational to choose streaming digital, since that does not actually meet your desire/goal. It would be like desiring to eat the salmon main course on a menu, looking to fulfill that desire, but ordering the steak instead. That's irrational.

So there is no fundamental way in which buying digital music is "rational" and NOT based on feelings/desires, where buying vinyl isn't rational because it is only based on feelings/desires. Both start from wanting to satisfy some feeling/desire.

I see this different. First lets define the goal(s).
1) listen to music (main goal)
2) listen to music in an accurate way(secundary goal)
3) fullfill goal 1) and 2) as cheap and effortless as possible.

Thats complete rational. Like buying a car for everyday usage. Define the requierements. Look for a solution that fullfills this requirements in an econonmic way.
Its easy to see that with this goals in mind vinyl has no rational justification.
You need to add goals to make it rational .
 
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MattHooper

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I see this different. First lets define the goal(s).
1) listen to music (main goal)
2) listen to music in an accurate way(secundary goal)
3) fullfill goal 1) and 2) as cheap and effortless as possible.

Thats complete rational. Like buying a car for everyday usage. Define the requierements. Look for a solution that fullfills this requirements in an econonmic way.
Its easy to see that with this goals in mind vinyl has no rational justification.
You need to add goals to make it rational .

Agreed. That simply repeats what I wrote.

You've described your own goal, hence choosing vinyl would be irrational given your own goal. Of course. But you'd written earlier that you seemed to see vinyl as sort of an inherently irrational choice (not just for you...that if someone else chose it, that's based on feelings, not rationality. At least that's what your post implied).

So we don't actually see it differently.

I suspect from the above that you are distinguishing between "goals" and "desires." As if phrasing the argument with a goal made something rational...but starting with a desire does not?

But all goals are expressions of desires. Goals are of subjective value. If I'm filling up my gas tank it may be towards the "goal" of driving from Toronto to Ottawa. But is that the "goal" towards which you will be filling up your gas tank? Unlikely. Goals are subjective, based on our desires. So it's just as I wrote: your goal in the above arises from your feeling, your desire, to listen to music in a certain way (accurate/at least cost).

You could replace that with the same argument for vinyl:

First lets define the goal(s).
1) listen to music (main goal)
2) listen to music in a way that I find most engaging - (for me: vinyl).
3) fulfill goal at whatever price I'm comfortable with.

Viola, vinyl is the rational choice to achieve the goal.
 

tomtoo

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Agreed. That simply repeats what I wrote.

You've described your own goal, hence choosing vinyl would be irrational given your own goal. Of course. But you'd written earlier that you seemed to see vinyl as sort of an inherently irrational choice (not just for you...that if someone else chose it, that's based on feelings, not rationality. At least that's what your post implied).

So we don't actually see it differently.

I suspect from the above that you are distinguishing between "goals" and "desires." As if phrasing the argument with a goal made something rational...but starting with a desire does not?

But all goals are expressions of desires. Goals are of subjective value. If I'm filling up my gas tank it may be towards the "goal" of driving from Toronto to Ottawa. But is that the "goal" towards which you will be filling up your gas tank? Unlikely. Goals are subjective, based on our desires. So it's just as I wrote: your goal in the above arises from your feeling, your desire, to listen to music in a certain way (accurate/at least cost).

You could replace that with the same argument for vinyl:

First lets define the goal(s).
1) listen to music (main goal)
2) listen to music in a way that I find most engaging - (for me: vinyl).
3) fulfill goal at whatever price I'm comfortable with.

Viola, vinyl is the rational choice to achieve the goal.

I enjoy to talk with you. Not today, friend was visiting me, and at the moment, i dont like to make a border between rational and fun. ;)
 

RichT

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Go digital it's better more portable and way easier. I do miss the large art work and very handy liner notes with vinyl records but I'm over it and you can do it too. BTW that kind of equipment is very fun to destroy for small children. Kind regards
 

puppet

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We all make/made sacrifices for our families. It never ends really. It's just your turn now.
Don't worry, you'll be OK.
 

Willem

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I wanted to sell my LP12 turntable with SME 3009 ii arm, but my family would not let me. Since then, they have never used it, however (nor have I). My reason was simple: digital audio is technologically far superior and easier to use, particularly now that I am streaming most of my music. I like the liner notes, of course, and most of all, I love the mechanical beauty of the classic SME arm, just like I love old purely mechanical cameras. But for sonic quality...
 

Cbdb2

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This question is less technical and more... philosophical? So apologies if it offends. I'm asking here because I think ASR leans away from vinyl being a good way to listen to music, so I'm hoping I'll get from you good, rational reasons to counter my slightly misty eyed ones.

The facts:
  • I have a low spec 1980s Linn LP12 turntable with a new MC cart, which I run into a mic amp, then into an AD converter, then into a Mac mini where I do digital RIAA and room correction before sending it to a DAC and then on to speakers.
  • I've a small but growing collection of around fifty records.
  • My partner gave birth to our twins ten weeks ago.
  • Our house needs renovations.
  • If I sold the vinyl-enabling portion of my system, I'd probably get around £2000, which is a long way towards a badly-needed new kitchen.
  • I am under no pressure from my partner to sell anything.
My arguments for vinyl:
  • I love the ritual of playing records, and how my records sound.
  • Before the twins were born I loved going to second hand record shops.
  • I have found some great music this way, that I wouldn't have done otherwise.
  • I like having a slowly growing physical representation of my favourite albums, rather than them just existing as little hearts in the Tidal ether.
  • I like the thought that in years to come the twins will leaf through and find music they might never encounter on YouTube, or whatever young people use by then.
  • Records look nice.
  • My LP12 looks nice.
  • I am proud to have created a vinyl playback system that is balanced from cartridge to speaker, that enables me to room correct a turntable, that is I think totally unique (not so humblebrag, sorry).
My arguments against vinyl:
  • Records are expensive
  • Records definitely don't sound as good as the same music streamed.
  • Modern LP pressings are often really disappointing.
  • My system would be far simpler without.

What should I do?

Thanks!

James

Congratulations! Sell the vinyl. Your hobby time just diminished.
 

teched58

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<snip>
  • I have a low spec 1980s Linn LP12 turntable with a new MC cart, which I run into a mic amp, then into an AD converter, then into a Mac mini where I do digital RIAA and room correction before sending it to a DAC and then on to speakers.
<snip>

If you're running your TT output into an A/D converter, WHAT THE HECK IS THE POINT OF LISTENING TO VINYL IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Most analog adherents want the true analog experience. Your method is instead giving you a more expensive and crappier digital listening experience.

I'm guessing that you're under 40 (congrats on the twins, btw) and so don't really get what I'm talking about, because you weren't around to have the "true" vinyl experience contemporaneously. I hafta say though, whatever you've picked up online that got you into this hobby has certainly not been provided to you in good faith, if you think that a redigitized LP is providing some sort of superior listening experience. I AM NOT criticizing vinyl; the point is, if you want to listen to vinyl, listen to it! This means an all-analog chain.
 

JWAmerica

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Totally useless. For the small price of $250 I will haul it away for you.
 

Soniclife

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If you're running your TT output into an A/D converter, WHAT THE HECK IS THE POINT OF LISTENING TO VINYL IN THE FIRST PLACE?
Because it still sounds exactly the same as it did before the conversion, unless as the OP does because they apply room EQ. Turntable designers in the 80s could not spot a trip through the digital domain, and digital is even better now.
 

levimax

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If you're running your TT output into an A/D converter, WHAT THE HECK IS THE POINT OF LISTENING TO VINYL IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Most analog adherents want the true analog experience. Your method is instead giving you a more expensive and crappier digital listening experience.

I'm guessing that you're under 40 (congrats on the twins, btw) and so don't really get what I'm talking about, because you weren't around to have the "true" vinyl experience contemporaneously. I hafta say though, whatever you've picked up online that got you into this hobby has certainly not been provided to you in good faith, if you think that a redigitized LP is providing some sort of superior listening experience. I AM NOT criticizing vinyl; the point is, if you want to listen to vinyl, listen to it! This means an all-analog chain.

I am old and I have a similar set up for vinyl as the OP i.e. SUT to balanced transmitter to ADC then digital RIAA and digital room correction. The advantages to this set up compared to an all analog chain are many. Quieter, more accurate RIAA, and most importantly it allows me to use room correction with vinyl play back. Vinyl play back is a fun luxury for me but the "all analog is better" has no basis in reality.
 

MRC01

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... I had parallel good gear for LP, RTR, and CD. I had about 800 records. I did enjoy the records, but it was becoming unwieldy. I finally came to the decision to get out of records. I sold the records, I sold the gear ...
My only minor regret was there were around 12-15 records not really replaceable on CD. ...
Same situation as me. I had quite a nice vinyl setup, sounded great, measured great (for vinyl) and about 750 records.
Problem was, I gradually went from using it daily 25 years go, to very rarely 5 years ago. I wasn't buying any new vinyl at all, and I had already made high quality recordings of all my vinyl. So the decision to sell everything was a no-brainer.
I do feel better knowing that nice gear is in the hands of another audiophile who uses and enjoys it. I have zero regrets.
 

teched58

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<snip> Vinyl play back is a fun luxury for me but the "all analog is better" has no basis in reality.

Please go back and reread my comment, which you have mischaracterized. I neither said nor implied that "all analog is better."
 

levimax

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Please go back and reread my comment, which you have mischaracterized. I neither said nor implied that "all analog is better."

I apologize if I mischaracterized your comments, to me your statement "the point is, if you want to listen to vinyl, listen to it! This means an all-analog chain." seems to imply that "analog is the better way" to listen to vinyl. Maybe you can clarify what you meant as I think other may be confused as well.
 

Blumlein 88

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If you're running your TT output into an A/D converter, WHAT THE HECK IS THE POINT OF LISTENING TO VINYL IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Most analog adherents want the true analog experience. Your method is instead giving you a more expensive and crappier digital listening experience.

I'm guessing that you're under 40 (congrats on the twins, btw) and so don't really get what I'm talking about, because you weren't around to have the "true" vinyl experience contemporaneously. I hafta say though, whatever you've picked up online that got you into this hobby has certainly not been provided to you in good faith, if you think that a redigitized LP is providing some sort of superior listening experience. I AM NOT criticizing vinyl; the point is, if you want to listen to vinyl, listen to it! This means an all-analog chain.
I don't agree with you. I've helped a few people set up LP rigs feeding an ADC. I did that for a time myself. The digital sampling is transparent, and if that makes it easier to integrate into an existing digital rig it just means more people can listen to good LPs. The experience of hearing or using it is exactly the same if the ritual and the physical disks and artwork on the albums appeal to you.

It becomes a different experience if you digitize the LP and play the recorded file. Sound will be just fine, but you aren't having the physical experience of playing vinyl.
 

LTig

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Because it still sounds exactly the same as it did before the conversion, unless as the OP does because they apply room EQ. Turntable designers in the 80s could not spot a trip through the digital domain, and digital is even better now.
This is what I do. Digitizing vinyl to use room EQ results in better SQ than staying analog.
 

MattHooper

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Somewhat apropos of the thread, I had another one of those "wow" moments tonight which ensured I won't be selling my vinyl rig any time soon.

To back up, I had to really pay the piper due to my using tube amps and vinyl. Back in the early spring I had some bedeviling distortion problems that were really tough to pin down, took tons of fiddling to finally find out a few things went bad at once - my cartridge, a few tubes etc. Took me forever to get it all fixed up again, but I got my amps first. So I've been listening to my digital music only for a few months and loving it. Rush albums were in constant rotation.

Finally got the replacement cartridge and spent a back-breaking day with a finicky protractor system getting it just right. So started mixing in records.

Tonight I put on Rush's 2112 LP (2015 vinyl release) and as I was listening I was like "Hold on, this sounds incredible. I've been listening to this album digitally, but this just is blowing me away." It just sounded so powerful. so dense, so spacious, so clear. I cued up my digital version of the album and got the vinyl and digital rolling essentially in sync, and as closely matched by ear as I could get it (no voltmeter, I was doing a causal comparison for myself). And switching back and forth...yeah, the vinyl sounded "better" in just the ways I thought it did. Drums, guitars, vocals, they all punched through more vividly, like they cut through the air. Pearts snare on the vinyl sounded slightly less "as dulled by a recording" but a bit more texturally "right there" like a real snare being hit. As I quickly switched back and forth, the digital version sounded more opaque and two dimensional. On the vinyl everything sounded more separated, spatially and tonally. Everytime I switched to the CD version the sound sort of congealed in to a smaller area had, as I mentioned, there was a slight opaque tonal quality that congealed the sound together. All told, the vinyl to me just sounded richer, clearer, thicker, more real and alive.

Funny thing is I went through exactly the same experience when I originally picked up these Rush LPs. I couldn't believe how good they sounded so I did the same test a few years ago, with the same results. But I'd recently got so used to the CD version again, and loving it, I sort of forget how the vinyl sounded.

This isn't of course a "vinyl is the better medium" post, because vinyl isn't the better (more accurate) medium. But it's one of those instances where I personally really preferred the sound of the vinyl. (Without knowing all the possible variables involved in mastering). I'd also earlier played a new LP I bought that featured a horn section with very heavy R&B drumming - more of a jazz ensemble and recorded like you might hear in a jazz club. It sounded astounding. I mean, as "good" a sonic experience in terms of the sense of live instruments playing as I've had playing any medium in my system.

That's why I say I really don't personally feel like I've given up too much in going for the other pleasures of vinyl (aesthetics, owning), as I often get my audiophile-moment sonic fireworks even from records, just as I often do from my digital music.

As to James' query, I can see going either way from what he wrote, making sense to dump vinyl...or keep it. Good points have been made by both sides.
 
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Jas0_0

Jas0_0

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I had a similar experience last night. I think vinyl lends itself to some genres better than others, and of course different mastering for the different formats will have an impact.

I had an amazing experience with a techno 12” single last night, could not believe the scale, imaging and weightiness. Also, I play it at 33 not 45 because I think it sounds better that way (I originally played it at the wrong speed when I first heard it in the shop, probably wouldn’t have bought it otherwise) - something much harder to do with digital!

But then I played some Malian kora music and it just didn’t have the precision and top end sparkle of the digital recording.

Still on the fence…
 
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