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Should I replace my KEF 105.1's?

Chromatischism

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Actually the measurements looked to my eyes very well behaved! I don't think upgrading would bring you any real benefit beside the "I got my new toy" joy
Are we looking at the same measurements?
 
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Don105

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OK - cleared out previous config, updated to the latest 5.20 build of REW, and took a number of new measurements. see attached zip. Runs were:
- left and right-speaker-only RTA periodic pink noise with mic static 5 feet in front of speaker (no smoothing applied)
- left+right RTA periodic pink noise using moving mic (no smoothing applied)
- 20-20khz sweeps (10x) using moving mic, with and without the windscreen on the mic (just in case this had any effect - doesn't seem like it) - 1/24 smoothing applied.
i've also attached screenshots of some of the setup screens for MIDI and REW.
- my Sony AVR receiver was set to "direct" stereo so all eq etc. should have been disengaged.

screenshot below is the average of the left-only, right-only, and L+R RTA measurements.
L, R, L+R smoothed average.png


These measurements look better to me, but I would be grateful for any comments or suggestions.
 

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  • KEF 105 with latest REW.zip
    1.2 MB · Views: 27

YSC

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Are we looking at the same measurements?
I think we are, besides the bass which are mostly room modes dominant it looks very behaved and flat to me, so buying new stuffs likely will have same room modes, and well, better bass extension if he buys subs
 

Chromatischism

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I think we are, besides the bass which are mostly room modes dominant it looks very behaved and flat to me, so buying new stuffs likely will have same room modes, and well, better bass extension if he buys subs
I saw a jagged treble response and bass that dropped off below 500 Hz.
 

Chromatischism

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OK - cleared out previous config, updated to the latest 5.20 build of REW, and took a number of new measurements. see attached zip. Runs were:
- left and right-speaker-only RTA periodic pink noise with mic static 5 feet in front of speaker (no smoothing applied)
- left+right RTA periodic pink noise using moving mic (no smoothing applied)
- 20-20khz sweeps (10x) using moving mic, with and without the windscreen on the mic (just in case this had any effect - doesn't seem like it) - 1/24 smoothing applied.
i've also attached screenshots of some of the setup screens for MIDI and REW.
- my Sony AVR receiver was set to "direct" stereo so all eq etc. should have been disengaged.

screenshot below is the average of the left-only, right-only, and L+R RTA measurements.
View attachment 143430

These measurements look better to me, but I would be grateful for any comments or suggestions.
These measurements do indeed look better, however, there is a problem here – the scale in your screenshot goes from -30 to 150 dB. Here it is with normal 5 dB increments, which I used a range of 45-105 dB to achieve. Others use 50-100 dB. It depends on your screen resolution:

test.png


I've also taken to starting at 10 Hz because I do a lot of subwoofer measurements, so this is my new standard.

Your response is very good from 500 Hz and up. Between 100-500 Hz there appears to be a broad depression which would take a little fullness out of the sound. In that range and below are typical room issues that we all have. EQ would help a lot there.

I don't understand the need to use Direct mode. I never do. In fact, that disables bass management on most AVRs. I would just use normal HDMI in and let the AVR set itself to MULTI CH IN or similar when you connect the HDMI, start REW, and test a channel. At least, mine switches for me as long as my computer is in 5.1 mode or higher and is sending the right signal.

I also have some questions about your measurements.

10 Sweeps avg MM L+R.mdat looks like an averaged sweep response, but the name includes "MM" which suggests moving mic RTA, which is a different procedure. Indeed, your measurement named L+R MM PN RTA.mdat looks like an RTA, of which the result looks nearly the same as the the first one. I'm not aware of a procedure that uses both a moving mic and sweeps. Can you explain?
 

YSC

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These measurements do indeed look better, however, there is a problem here – the scale in your screenshot goes from -30 to 150 dB. Here it is with normal 5 dB increments, which I used a range of 45-105 dB to achieve. Others use 50-100 dB. It depends on your screen resolution:

View attachment 143500

I've also taken to starting at 10 Hz because I do a lot of subwoofer measurements, so this is my new standard.

Your response is very good from 500 Hz and up. Below that are typical room issues that we all have. EQ would help a lot there.

I don't understand the need to use Direct mode. I never do. In fact, that disables bass management on most AVRs. I would just use normal HDMI in and let the AVR set itself to MULTI CH IN or similar when you connect the HDMI, start REW, and test a channel. At least, mine switches for me as long as my computer is in 5.1 mode or higher and is sending the right signal.

I also have some questions about your measurements.

10 Sweeps avg MM L+R.mdat looks like an averaged sweep response, but the name includes "MM" which suggests moving mic RTA, which is a different procedure. Indeed, your measurement named L+R MM PN RTA.mdat looks like an RTA, of which the result looks nearly the same as the the first one. I'm not aware of a procedure that uses both a moving mic and sweeps. Can you explain?
Yes, this is the one I was looking, previous measurement seems like near field driver measurements so I didn't bother looking. From 500hz up it's even better than my very near field usage of 8030C+sub tuned where I got a 500-2.5khz dip of ~4db,
8030+7040_tuned_overlay.jpg

this makes me feel that acquiring new speakers for the OP won't really help, and for EQ I only see the peak at ~65hz might need a tiny bit of attenuation, for room mode cancellations EQ don't help much
 
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Don105

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These measurements do indeed look better, however, there is a problem here – the scale in your screenshot goes from -30 to 150 dB. Here it is with normal 5 dB increments, which I used a range of 45-105 dB to achieve. Others use 50-100 dB. It depends on your screen resolution:

View attachment 143500

I've also taken to starting at 10 Hz because I do a lot of subwoofer measurements, so this is my new standard.

Your response is very good from 500 Hz and up. Between 100-500 Hz there appears to be a broad depression which would take a little fullness out of the sound. In that range and below are typical room issues that we all have. EQ would help a lot there.

I don't understand the need to use Direct mode. I never do. In fact, that disables bass management on most AVRs. I would just use normal HDMI in and let the AVR set itself to MULTI CH IN or similar when you connect the HDMI, start REW, and test a channel. At least, mine switches for me as long as my computer is in 5.1 mode or higher and is sending the right signal.

I also have some questions about your measurements.

10 Sweeps avg MM L+R.mdat looks like an averaged sweep response, but the name includes "MM" which suggests moving mic RTA, which is a different procedure. Indeed, your measurement named L+R MM PN RTA.mdat looks like an RTA, of which the result looks nearly the same as the the first one. I'm not aware of a procedure that uses both a moving mic and sweeps. Can you explain?

i did 10 sweeps while moving the mic :). I figured that if it works well for pink noise, why not use it for sweeps… bad assumption?
 
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Don105

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Thanks everyone for their inputs! This is definitely a learning exercise for me. I do have a Sony 12” sub in the back right corner of the room, will try turning this on and playing with the level and crossover freq as well as leaving the AVR in its default sound mode.

Dumb question- if I decided I wanted to use correction, I assume I would need a bunch of new equipment- separate preamp and amp and something like a mini-DSP? Or are there AVRs that support this and could use the output of REW?

thanks
 

YSC

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Thanks everyone for their inputs! This is definitely a learning exercise for me. I do have a Sony 12” sub in the back right corner of the room, will try turning this on and playing with the level and crossover freq as well as leaving the AVR in its default sound mode.

Dumb question- if I decided I wanted to use correction, I assume I would need a bunch of new equipment- separate preamp and amp and something like a mini-DSP? Or are there AVRs that support this and could use the output of REW?

thanks
does your AVR have some sort of EQ or sub output level available?
 
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Don105

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does your AVR have some sort of EQ or sub output level available?

It is a Sony STR-DN1040 - it does have a pair of sub outputs (https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/res/manuals/4454/44544431M.pdf). BTW it also has a built-in calibration system with a mic but the on-screen display hardware is shot, so I am unable to use this. I do need to replace this unit but haven't settled on what to replace it with. Had looked at the NAD 778 but this got a poor review here. Maybe one of the higher-end Denons... that's a whole other conversation :).
 

Chromatischism

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i did 10 sweeps while moving the mic :). I figured that if it works well for pink noise, why not use it for sweeps… bad assumption?
Don't move the mic during sweeps. It invalidates the timing and phase, and gives you a measurement of bass from one location and different treble frequencies from other locations. The MM is only done with RTA.
 
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Negas

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It is a Sony STR-DN1040 - it does have a pair of sub outputs (https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/res/manuals/4454/44544431M.pdf). BTW it also has a built-in calibration system with a mic but the on-screen display hardware is shot, so I am unable to use this. I do need to replace this unit but haven't settled on what to replace it with. Had looked at the NAD 778 but this got a poor review here. Maybe one of the higher-end Denons... that's a whole other conversation :).
In my opinion, you need a good vintage stereo receiver from 70s. A Sansui or Pionner will be great. The bass will get better.
 

GPZ1100

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I agree with
In my opinion, you need a good vintage stereo receiver from 70s. A Sansui or Pionner will be great. The bass will get better.
I agree with that statement 100%. I own a pair of 105.2’s and they are my favourite pair of vintage speakers but I got off to rough start with my pair. I bought them a few years ago and I did not test them before I purchased them but they were in mint physical condition. Unfortunately both of my woofers had the famous KEF woofer sagging issue. I had a shop re align them and they are now perfect but now that I could properly test them I found that they sounded very mediocre. My reference vintage speaker the Energy Pro 22’s would absolutely blow the 105’s away. I was very disappointed and decided to sell the 105’s. Before I got around to listing the 105’s I noticed that seemed to be sounding better and better as I got more hours on them, the transformation was quite remarkable. After about 20hrs of listening they seemed to stabilize. I did another comparison with my best pair of Energy 22’s and was amazed to find the 105’s outperforming the 22’s. This was the first vintage speaker I have owned that could do that and I have owned a lot of vintage speakers. My 105’s had been in storage for over 25 years before I purchased them and I believe that is why the woofers sagged. I also believe the cross overs went out of spec from sitting so long but came around with use. If anybody buys vintage speakers that have not been used for a long period of time I would strongly recommend giving them 10 to 20 hrs of use before judging them. As for the amplifier the 105’s do well with my Pioneer 737. The 737 is a fantastic mid powered receiver. The 105’s really sing with my Pioneer 1010. They really are a match made in heaven. I stream using a nice R2R dac and the sound quality is amazing. I actually prefer it to my much more expensive contemporary system. Overall I would highly recommend the 105.2’s to anyone looking for premium vintage speaker.
 
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