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Should I keep my PMC DB1 Gold Speakers

mafelba

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I have an NAD c 268 amp, a modius dac, a SYS preamp and PMC DB1 Gold speakers. Up until this evening, I thought my speakers were great and the lynchpin of whatever system I would end up with. But tonight I read some reviews about these PMC speakers and apparently the results of measurements are "a mess" (quoted a poster here).

Some possibly important facts: I do not listen to music while positioned in one spot - I move around. My room size is a innopportune 10' x 25' but effectively 10' x 10' since I consider that my living space (the other space is used as dining table, etc.). I have an SVS SB-1000 sub woofer.

Are these speakers so subpar that I would notice a huge improvement by buying a comparable set of bookshelf speakers that measure well at ASR? If the answer to that is yes, then I will get a set of tower speakers, nothing huge - could anyone make a recommendation? price limit would be $5,000.
 
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mafelba

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A further question: are speakers like DACs and amps in the sense that the measurements reflect transparency? In other words, could I buy a speaker without even listening for the same reason I could safely buy a transparent DAC or amp without listening to it? Or are speakers different.
 

Absolute

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First of all it's important to understand that individual preference might not be the same as group preference. All research is about group preference where individual variations is averaged out.

Secondly it's nice to know that people with sub-par hearing didn't get to participate in the research because their testing results was not repetitive enough to achieve reliable data.

This means that we're operating on likelihood instead of certainties when we contemplate questions like this in regards to individuals.

For group preference, sure thing. Buy better speakers. For each individual it's different, it might or might not be a successful solution to ignore anything but measurements.

Speakers aren't quite the same as electronics because no speaker is transparent and all of them have trade-offs. According to research we are most bothered by flaws in a speaker, where the worst flaws are resonances, weird tonality and lack of bass extension/quality.

Speaker measurements like presented here on ASR will tell you about the flaws of speakers, but won't tell you as an individual whether this particular flaw is more or less ok than that particular flaw.

Basically we can only tell you that it's more or less likely you'll prefer something, but I'd say you're better off trying to audition speakers with very specific traits to get some experience about what particular traits you seem to enjoy more than others.
Like wide dispersion vs narrow, or flat tonality vs more relaxed (or with a treble rise).

For example comparing a Genelec with a similar Revel will likely demonstrate if you prefer wide or narrow dispersion speaker for your taste.
 
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AnalogSteph

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Judging from measurements of the DB1 i model, a bit of EQ may be needed to flatten out the highs, and you may be best off crossing them rather above 100 Hz for some decent integration as things are going south very quickly below that, limiting sub placement somewhat. A 5"/1" monitor with low, presumably higher-order crossover should normally have pretty decent, wide dispersion either way.

I'd say get a measurement mic and see what REW has to say on your current setup. Otherwise $5000 would be a more than decent budget for some new mains and a second sub.

Note that if the PMCs have a directivity as wide as you'd suspect, acoustic treatment may provide a very welcome reduction of reflected sound vs. direct sound. Depends on listening distance and how plush the room interior is. They are not what I'd want to use at 10' in a lively room, that's for sure.
 

Ilkless

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PMC's low-end performance is both elevated in the midbass and devoid of low bass to an unusual degree compared to decently-engineered speakers of a similar size. What is there is distorted. I cannot hazard a guess as to the in-room effect because it depends on your setup. The net result may be pleasurable taken as a whole (though this auditory judgment would be coloured in sighted listening by non-acoustic factors such as aesthetics and backstory).

What is a design error that is less controversial and generalisable across room and setup is the total disregard for matching dispersion between mid-range and treble. It means the tonality of reflected sound does not match the direct sound as much. It is contrary to what the research indicates and to good engineering practice based on this research. In that sense PMC is a regressive company pretending to be cutting-edge.
 

tuga

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Should I keep my PMC DB1 Gold Speakers?

Only if you like them.
There are speakers which perform better / reproduce the signal more accurately but you may not prefer them to your PMCs.

A further question: are speakers like DACs and amps in the sense that the measurements reflect transparency?

Yes.

In other words, could I buy a speaker without even listening for the same reason I could safely buy a transparent DAC or amp without listening to it?

Measurements will only reflect preference if you are able to correlate measurements with your listening experience.
And even if you can roughly antecipate whether or not you will enjoy the sound of a speaker, I would still avoid buying without listening first or without having the possibility to return the item.
 

tuga

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In that sense PMC is a regressive company pretending to be cutting-edge.

Regressive is not the right word.

Conservative or perhaps outdated is more a accurate description and less unjustly pejorative.
 

DSJR

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These are the tiny ones, so possibly don't do bass like the larger ones do. A 25' x 10' room can be a pain to work with (our last house had a similar size room as a full-on lounge (separate dining room). My ATC SCM20ASL Pro's (similar bass to upper mid balance tot he old 19's annihilated here a short while back) actually balanced well firing down the length of the room - I mention this for completeness..

If the OP likes the sound and can spend hours enjoying music via his system, then it's doing its job. PMC tweeters seem to be set 'hot' as a breed, but that's because they shouldn't be toed in I gather, the excesses flattening out a touch when heard slightly off axis. All I can suggest is that the OP tries to borrow alternatives with better measurements (?) to see if they satisfy more - it'll take half an hour or so for ears to adjust to a different balance, but a loan for a weekend can usually sort it one way or another. In the UK for example, even the smaller cheaper Q Acoustics models may make an interesting start perhaps? :)
 

Willem

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No speaker is perfect, although some are clearly worse than others. In the end, it depends on what you find least objectionable. There is one thing, however, that can be said with quite objective certainty, and that is that a second subwoofer (plus some dsp room eq) will improve the sound of your system quite a lot. It will smoothen the peaks and nulls from room modes and do so over a wider area. If you are not averse to some work and tinkering, adding Dirac dsp equalization on top of the second sub will improve low frequency response even further, and may even be used to slightly adjust the response of your main speakers (but go easy there). If you want to equalize without much effort and without spending too much, a DSpeaker Antimode 8033 for just the subwoofer(s) is the answer.
 
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mafelba

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If the OP likes the sound and can spend hours enjoying music via his system, then it's doing its job.

I guess in fairness, especially to PMC, I must say that I really like the speakers very much. There are some recordings where I would swear that no speaker would sound better (I tend to listen at low volumes). Other recordings are lifeless. I could imagine that these DB1's make good sounding recording sound incredible and probably do no favors to lackluster recordings. But, then again, I also don't know what I'm missing and hence the original question.

When I bought these, i think 6 years ago now, i was hard set to buy top of the line Bowers and Wilkins bookshelfs, that is until the salesperson said "let me show you one more speaker" and long story short, the rest was history. The sound difference was quite noticeable. A little side story: I had a little more money to throw around back then and I think the salesperson def got that sense. I wanted to buy a $2,000 DAC from them along with the speakers and I kept kind of pushing and he said "you don't need that", point blank. I'll never forget that. That guy literally gave up an easy sale and I assume it was because he thought I was a good guy.
 
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mafelba

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There is one thing, however, that can be said with quite objective certainty, and that is that a second subwoofer (plus some dsp room eq) will improve the sound of your system quite a lot.

Wow, this in interesting. Perhaps all that I really need to get to the next level is another sub.
 

Willem

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That is what I would certainly do, as it will give a much smoother and cleaner bass, and you will really notice. Do combine it with dsp room eq of the low end for an even better result. The beauty of the combination is that with two subs, room eq workes even better, and, very importantly, over a wider listening area. There are many web pages on this, but see here for a good one: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/05/musings-measurements-subwoofers-to.html
 
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mafelba

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That is what I would certainly do, as it will give a much smoother and cleaner bass, and you will really notice. Do combine it with dsp room eq of the low end for an even better result. The beauty of the combination is that with two subs, room eq workes even better, and, very importantly, over a wider listening area. There are many web pages on this, but see here for a good one: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/05/musings-measurements-subwoofers-to.html

Thanks, I'm going to get another sub. In your opinion, are the SVS's respectable? I have the SB-1000. The reason I ask is that I think both subs have to be same brand and model, correct?
 

Willem

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The SVS SB1000 is a very respectable subwoofer, and even though it is no disaster to have two different ones, there is no reason to get anything else. Do not forget the dsp room eq, however. It makes a real difference. What sources do you use?
 
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mafelba

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That is what I would certainly do, as it will give a much smoother and cleaner bass, and you will really notice.

Crazy question - in order to fit the room aesthetics (not my aesthetics, fwiw), i would need to place both subs on the ends of my entertainment cabinet which means that there would on be about 4 feet separating them and both would be facing me in the same direction as my PMC speakers. Would this close placement basically render a second sub worthless for all intents and purposes?
 
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mafelba

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The SVS SB1000 is a very respectable subwoofer, and even though it is no disaster to have two different ones, there is no reason to get anything else. Do not forget the dsp room eq, however. It makes a real difference. What sources do you use?

I have an apple TV (apple music) going to my TV via hdmi and then everything out of my TV via optical into a moduis and then to a schiit SYS passive preamp to an NAD C 268 amp.
 

Willem

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Having two subs very close together obviously turns them into one acoustically. They would not be on top of each otber, but equally not that far apart. More distance would be better.
I asked about sources because if you used a computer you could easily do the dsp room eq on the computer, and potentially for free.
 

RayDunzl

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Up until this evening, I thought my speakers were great and the lynchpin of whatever system I would end up with.

But tonight I read some reviews about these PMC speakers and apparently the results of measurements are "a mess" (quoted a poster here).


I suffer with you. Oh boo hoo.

I too was happy until somebody told me I was unhappy.

Now, I merely exist without direction or hope to await death.


Oh, wait, this is about speakers.

I thought I liked mine, but what an ignorant fool I was.

Here (or a very similar pair), they are hated by all in this scientific study of preference:

1602100443414.png

https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2008/12/loudspeaker-preferences-of-trained.html


Note how the professional listeners in the group hated all the speakers more than everyone else in the study, but still hated mine the most.

When I saw that I wanted to burn them on the spot, move to Belgium, and become a Trappist brew tester.

Then, I figured contributing to Global Warming by releasing the carbon in them would be a poor choice.

So I kept them, and only continue to listen to them just to spite others here.

I thrive on their disgust.

The fun part is faking measurements to post here where I try to convince others they aren't so so bad, because the measurements look good, if only from the listening position, where I will eventually die, forlorn, forgotten, in a sea of bad sound.
 
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mafelba

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I suffer with you. Oh boo hoo.

I too was happy until somebody told me I was unhappy.

Now, I merely exist without direction or hope to await death.


Oh, wait, this is about speakers.

I thought I liked mine, but what an ignorant fool I was.

Here (or a very similar pair), they are hated by all in this scientific study of preference:

View attachment 86662
https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2008/12/loudspeaker-preferences-of-trained.html


Note how the professional listeners in the group hated all the speakers more than everyone else in the study, but still hated mine the most.

When I saw that I wanted to burn them on the spot, move to Belgium, and become a Trappist brew tester.

Then, I figured contributing to Global Warming by releasing the carbon in them would be a poor choice.

So I kept them, and only continue to listen to them just to spite others here.

I thrive on their disgust.

The fun part is faking measurements to post here where I try to convince others they aren't so so bad, because the measurements look good, if only from the listening position, where I will eventually die, forlorn, forgotten, in a sea of bad sound.

I feel a bit better reading this. I just posted a rather lengthy and possibly boring opinion on why you might not have to feel so bad about your speakers (it's in the Review and Measurements of Benchmark AHB2 Amp thread). But regardless of anything, I share your scornage.
 
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