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Should I "feel" the sound more with floorstanding speakers vs bookshelves?

Josq

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Remember folks, a microphone measures sound pressure, it does not measure tactile response. So, conventional SPL responses are not going to explain this. Tactile response is more related to sound intensity, which can increase with things like ports. This is why a ported sub typically has more tactile response than a sealed, for the same SPL.
What's the difference between sound intensity and amplitude (which surely can be measured by a microphone)?
 

Eetu

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I think if you had measured the in-room response you'd have seen differences in the upper bass region.

One contributing factor could be that a floorstander with multiple drivers can lessen SBIR and floor bounce.

There's less IMD since the dual woofers only have to handle the 80-160Hz band whereas on the M105 the small midwoofer has to cope with everything between 80-2300Hz.
 

chych7

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What's the difference between sound intensity and amplitude (which surely can be measured by a microphone)?

From my understanding, sound intensity is the energy/sound power being transmitted through an area, and is a vector quantity (has magnitude and direction). Sound pressure is scalar (just magnitude, no direction). Particle velocity is included into sound intensity, which is how fast the air is actually moving. Sound pressure does not have this movement component.

Wikipedia would give a more comprehensive answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_intensity
 

Josq

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From my understanding, sound intensity is the energy/sound power being transmitted through an area, and is a vector quantity (has magnitude and direction). Sound pressure is scalar (just magnitude, no direction). Particle velocity is included into sound intensity, which is how fast the air is actually moving. Sound pressure does not have this movement component.

Wikipedia would give a more comprehensive answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_intensity
Thanks. Splitting a velocity vector into direction and speed components, I can imagine that the direction of a sound wave can make a tactile difference in the bass region. But the speed would be related to frequency I guess?
 

Sokel

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All that "feel" you mean,if I understand correctly comes from 100-300Hz.
That is the advantage of the big 3-ways with the large woofers crossed at 200-300-400Hz.
And there's no substitute to that feel.It's what balances the whole thing and makes it sound in the right proportions.

Edit:whole,not hole.
 
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chych7

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Thanks. Splitting a velocity vector into direction and speed components, I can imagine that the direction of a sound wave can make a tactile difference in the bass region. But the speed would be related to frequency I guess?

The speed of a particle (i.e. air molecules) would be related to the frequency and amplitude of the wave (this is different than the propagation of the wave itself, which happens at the "speed of sound").

Also a nice animation to show the difference between particle velocity and a waveform: http://weles-acoustics.com/en/technologies/particle-velocity-sensor/

All that "feel" you mean,if I understand correctly comes from 100-300Hz.
That is the advantage of the big 3-ways with the large woofers crossed at 200-300-400Hz.
And there's no substitute to that feel.It's what balances the whole thing and makes it sound in the right proportions.

Edit:whole,not hole.

It would be nice if we had an objective way to measure the quality of "feel" from a speaker, so we can get out of this hand-waviness and speculation. A bookshelf with small woofers can be made to have the same SPL response as a big 3-way with large woofer (assuming "reasonable" SPLs), yet we would perceive the speakers differently. We are not using the right tools to analyze this problem using science.
 

mglobe

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The only way I can see this as being a meaningful comparison (never mind not being blind) is if the subs were set up a d eq’d for each set of speakers separately. Of the subs were set up once, and then you just switch between the floor standing and the standmounts, the floor speakers will win the bass wars every time.
 

Sokel

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We are not using the right tools to analyze this problem using science.
I'm sure that science is not our problem here.
The problem is always the compromises,room,freedom of placement and treatment,money to buy what's needed,money to pay people to do it right,etc.
And all that comes around to only two plays for me to decide if I have the "magic" (fun,accuracy -or not is favorable,levels,etc).
Mozart's Requiem by Reiner (whole play) and DR's Telegraph Road for the atmosphere.If they fail to put me in I'm off and I don't care about anything right or wrong.
Surprisingly is not very difficult with a little effort and money,but I never got the "feel" with small speakers.
 

Holmz

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The speed of a particle (i.e. air molecules) would be related to the frequency and amplitude of the wave (this is different than the propagation of the wave itself, which happens at the "speed of sound").

The speed of the air molecules are related to the temperature, and what mass those molecules have.
 

Josq

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A bookshelf with small woofers can be made to have the same SPL response as a big 3-way with large woofer (assuming "reasonable" SPLs), yet we would perceive the speakers differently.
Why?

You mentioned sound intensity, which in the end appears to be a combination of frequency, amplitude and direction.

A larger woofer should be able to play louder and deeper with less distortion, but that's not the question here. Frequency and amplitude should be the same for a fair comparison, I think we agree on that.

The difference in direction should be negligible if we put the large woofer and the small woofer in the same location (in the near field, the curvature of the wave front would be slightly different: a large woofer is more like a piston, a small woofer is more like a point source).

So what else is there (apart from looks and psychoacoustics etc) that would lead to a clearly different perception?
 

Soundstage

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I have a pair of F208. There is some bass but it does not go down enough for my taste.
 

chych7

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The speed of the air molecules are related to the temperature, and what mass those molecules have.

Are also related, yes, as well as any loads imposed on the air (like an oscillating woofer, output of a port).

Why?

You mentioned sound intensity, which in the end appears to be a combination of frequency, amplitude and direction.

A larger woofer should be able to play louder and deeper with less distortion, but that's not the question here. Frequency and amplitude should be the same for a fair comparison, I think we agree on that.

The difference in direction should be negligible if we put the large woofer and the small woofer in the same location (in the near field, the curvature of the wave front would be slightly different: a large woofer is more like a piston, a small woofer is more like a point source).

So what else is there (apart from looks and psychoacoustics etc) that would lead to a clearly different perception?

Perhaps I'm more thinking of the interaction of the port, for which there can be different tunings for a bookshelf vs. large speaker. A port and its associated impact on phase could also affect the soundwave, even with the same SPL at a particular frequency (that's probably near the port tune frequency). I'm more familiar with this effect and on subwoofers; the guy on avsforum measured this effect for two subs (Rythmik FV15HP vs. Behringer B1200D, see the middle of his first post). Same 88 dB SPL but the mid-bass sub has higher tactile response (sound intensity).

For the case of near-field, a small speaker and big speaker would have differences, but as you say, it should be negligible in the far field (is this true also for lower bass freqs?). Any other differences can be due to things like different dispersion profiles, SBIR behavior, and such.
 

DJNX

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Why don't try out a big 3-way bookshelf, like the KEF R3? Having that woofer free for the 80-400 Hz range, does make a difference, specially for content as dynamic as movie soundtracks.
Although, if you were feeling the sound that much, it means you were listening really loud, so a tower will most certainly still edge a big one like the R3.

Do you have any idea how loud it was? And most importantly: do you know if you'll be able to listen that loud in your room?
If the room is not big enough, your ears will start asking for help way before the towers can get loud enough to reproduce that "feel".
 
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djwo013

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Do you have any idea how loud it was? And most importantly: do you know if you'll be able to listen that loud in your room?
If the room is not big enough, your ears will start asking for help way before the towers can get loud enough to reproduce that "feel".

My phone app was registering around 72dB on the floorstanders for the loudest organ parts of the scene I was testing, and 74dB for the standmounted ones. I have no clue how accurate a phone app would be, although it was at least consistent upon replay and the same chords. It didn't feel especially loud, definitely not enough to make me worry about my hearing kind of loud I guess. I was probably about 10-12ft away from the speakers.
 

DJNX

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If your phone is an iPhone then the measurement was accurate.
So if you were around 12 feet away from the speakers, it means that at 3 feet the speakers were outputting 85dB.
I assume that was the average? So peaks were between 10-20 dB higher than the average.

I can see the M105 struggling in that scenario. Although M105 owners might want to chime in.
 

Bren Derlin

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I thought about the M105's but the 5.25" driver size for movies didn't seem adequate, so went with the 6.5" drivers on the M106. I can't complain.
 

Holmz

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If we think it is sub related the then OP should match using dB(A) and have the measurement for dB(C), which implicitly says whether there is more base or not…

We can hypothesize till the cows come home otherwise.


It sure ain't science.

It is science actually.
The fellow did not want the more expensive speaker and booth he and his other half observed it in a repeatable fashion.

So when one try’s to come up with hypothesis to test, it is not religion, it does sound a bit like a scientific process.

But I totally agree that they need in-room measurements. Which was the dB(A) versus dB(C) numbers I suggested.

I think I read your initial post as suggesting they needed to be in the room of the house that the OP and his other half own. But I think you may have meant the room that they listened to them in.
So we can argue whether they need do pink noise or sweeps or just level them using the app in dB(A) and then see what the app says for bot sets in dB(C)… or what is your specific suggestion?

Given it is in a shop, I suspect that they could go out of their way to make the more expensive speaker sound better, if they wanted to
Which could include some non optimisation of the cheaper ones using a sub.
I am not saying that they did.

But/So the OP needs a method that the store will abide.
 
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