Should I exchange my Philharmonic Audio HTs for Genelec 8361a's?

[MTZ]

How would you describe the difference between with and without the 7360a? Some say you don't need subs with 8361a, could you live without one?

I included a sub so i could deal a little bit better with my room modes. Without sub the 8361a is very capable and you don't need a sub for the bass extension. They really go low.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Not yet. It's going to be a few weeks. The good news is I think I will be able to listen to the 8351b's next to my Philharmonic Audio HTs.

I will be interested in what you think after that. Really you should try to give it a few days if possible, but a full day might be enough. Compare, then listen to the Gens for a while, then compare again. I would use well known and loved tracks for that. The Genelecs are technically more accurate, but that does not mean you will like them better in your room.

I do put a lot of weight on opinions here, of people who have listened to and measured a lot of speakers. Genelec is a popular choice here for very good reason.

 

[Sam Ash]

Not yet. It's going to be a few weeks. The good news is I think I will be able to listen to the 8351b's next to my Philharmonic Audio HTs.

Will be nice to have your views in terms of a comparison.

 

[Esprit]

The one issue is one of height/image size. Unless you elevate the center of 8361A to the same place your current speakers are, you are going to get less height in your imaging.

Since we can't use an acoustically transparent screen, does the fact that the 8361 is concentric and easily tiltable also help if we place it below the screen and not behind it?

 

[srrxr71]

Very hard question to answer. I haven’t listened to both.

The only thing that I feels benefits the listener is to able to sit a lot closer and balance the direct/reflected sound. The GRADE report part of GLM will tell you if your reflected sound at the listening position is down 10dB or more as they suggest.

Very easy to do even in a small room if you sit close enough.

 

[AudioJester]

The tilt function of the 8361a is very useful. I do find it hard to align both speakers in all planes due to the curved cabinets. But then again the vertical dispersion is really good, so you dont need to be exactly on axis. They can also be placed horizontly and still be tilted up or down.

 

[Mort]

So many good comments here. Thank you, ASR community.

Some thoughts on this decision.

• I've been listening to the HT's without a subwoofer. Both the HT and the 8361a are within a hz or two of each other at f3. (38 vs 36 I think). It's both revealing at how little of my music content is actually below that frequency, but also how much I miss it on tracks where I know it's not being reproduced. I don't think I want to sacrifice those lower frequencies.
• The 8361a is a beast. There is only one stand Genelec recommends and it's expensive and huge. Between the stands and the beast monitor, I wouldn't even have room for a Genelec subwoofer (were it that I could afford one.)
• I'm not sure if GLM will be better than DiracLive/MiniDsp. Both seem to work for some people but not others. It would be great to test but not a primary decision factor.

In a few weeks, I will get to briefly audition the 8351a (not b) with a subwoofer in another space, but I don't know how much I should count that. It's just the only 'One' monitor I can find to listen to.

I lean against but am still intrigued.

 

[MarkS]

When hearing the 8351a, I suggest focusing on the sounds of mids to highs and imaging/soundstaging. (And if it matters to you, the sound standing vs seated.) The Genelec concentric mid/dome-tweeter produces very different horizontal and vertical dispersion than the Philharmonic mid-ATM-mid configuration. Bass, on the other hand, is too room and room-correction dependent for differences to be meaningful (IMO). And of course if at all possible listen to music you like and are familiar with on your Phils.

 

[Esprit]

I'm not sure if GLM will be better than DiracLive/MiniDsp

Yes, it is better and the calibration is saved directly in the speaker, avoiding the purchase of additional hardware.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

I lean against but am still intrigued.

I was intrigued enough to look at things, given I could drop a bit of money on gear this summer if I wanted. For me, it would be a bad decision, but that's because of my room. I am currently running Ascend Sierra LX, no sub, and they are 5' off the wall behind them. Flat to 20db is no problem, level wise, though the quality of bass below 35db is not great. It's there though.

If I had a conventional space? It would be tempting. Would I do it? I would lean towards yes, but it's pretty close. Close enough that I might change my mind as typing.

It would be hard to give up my current system because there was a lot of thought and decision making that went into it, the decisions and setting it up. Genelecs are a commodity product, there is no decision about how to integrate it with other components, it is what it is. That is subjective, but it is the case with me.

If I was going from 2.2, I would like the fact that I could ditch the subs. Don't get me wrong, I like a sub in my AV system, but "no sub" was my goal in my current system. No integration issues, and lots of floor space freed up. In a 12x12 room, maybe the dual subs will give you better bass though. I have (thankfully) never had to set things up in a square room since I started measuring, but I know there are issues.

How much improvement would I get that I personally would notice? Well, cleaner bass at the extreme low end, and I do put on organ music occasionally. For the rest? I know I will hear a 2db, will I hear a 1db difference? Not without A/B and a lot of concentration, based on past experience. Instrument location and separation are great, and I don't really hear much more that could be "locked down" in that area. Again, A/B probably, but absent that? Yeah, likely a bit, particularly in the bass.

Could I live with how they look? Well, sure! But nice wood cabinets are nice to look at. And given the main room of the house... I really would not want to heft those off the stands when not in use.

Stands. Most likely I would start with some end/side tables or DIY, until I confirmed the height I needed, then consider commercial stands. I've done that before, works fine for diagnostic purposes.

--

Ok, so I would try the Phils with no sub, do some measures, and see what the bass mode situation was. If I could set things up for a single listening position and keep the bass from nulling at a frequency I cared about, then Genelec. OTOH, if there was a null I could not deal with, or if I wanted MORE than one listening position, then I would stick with dual subs and the Phils.

It's a tough choice, really. I don't think you can go wrong either way, but given a square room, 4 bass sources (two speakers and two subs) are way more likely to give you the ability to get the bass right. That's the biggest factor, but how important that factor is to you depends on you.

 

[Mort]

but given a square room, 4 bass sources (two speakers and two subs) are way more likely to give you the ability to get the bass right.

I think this is right. I'm pretty sure I would want subwoofers even with the genelec 8361a system. Maybe not, but I think I would miss it. And it might help balance the bass registers.

I might first have to use non-genelec subwoofers, MiniDsp, Diraclive and skip GLM. Ultimately I will have enough money to buy genelec smart active subs, but it might be a while. I will probably never buy the w371a.

GLM has it's fans and proponents but also some that say it's comparable to other room correction told. I'd like to experiment with it and while optimistic, I know there are only so many things that can improve a small square room.

A third and fourth subwoofer are likely the best answers but I can't fit anymore equipment.

 

[Avp1]

I think this is right. I'm pretty sure I would want subwoofers even with the genelec 8361a system. Maybe not, but I think I would miss it. And it might help balance the bass registers.

I might first have to use non-genelec subwoofers, MiniDsp, Diraclive and skip GLM. Ultimately I will have enough money to buy genelec smart active subs, but it might be a while. I will probably never buy the w371a.

GLM has it's fans and proponents but also some that say it's comparable to other room correction told. I'd like to experiment with it and while optimistic, I know there are only so many things that can improve a small square room.

A third and fourth subwoofer are likely the best answers but I can't fit anymore equipment.

You can come experiment with subwoofer placement to compensate some room modes acoustically. It worked for me and allowed to bring worst mode down 6dB along with pulling up some nulls. All done ONLY using subwoofer adjustment and keeping main speakers full range (they have 12" woofers).

 

[Mort]

Good news! I'll be able to demo the 8361a for a few weeks in my room. I have the GLM kit as well. Pictures as soon as they arrive.

 

[Audio Science Pal]

Good news! I'll be able to demo the 8361a for a few weeks in my room. I have the GLM kit as well. Pictures as soon as they arrive.

Very fortunate that you can do that. Get a pair of stands/tables, some wires ready and have fun!

 

[Mort]

Here's what I will get to compare tomorrow when they arrive. ( on my birthday coincidentally.)

I'm very fortunate to be able to spend time with theses two great audio systems:

Philharmonic Audio HT Towers
2x Rythmik E15
Minidsp flex balanced with DiracLive
Buckeye Ncx500
Wiim ultra

Genelec 8361a monitors
Topping d70 pro sabre
Wiim ultra
GLM kit

Tips on listening have been helpful thanks.

I will listen to the Genelecs with the Rythmik subs via MiniDsp flex. I don't have a genelec subwoofer to play with.

Eventually I'll be playing with DiracLive and GLM but that may take some days.

My intention is to get some baseline REW measurements along the way . I'm no expert, but I can run sweeps with a calibrated mic and report here.

Your suggestions continue to be welcome.

 

[Mort]

It was a lot of fun anticipating the arrival of the Genelec 8361a's and they do not disappoint. It's only been a day but here are some impressions.

• The smooth, integrated bass really has to be heard.
• Power is ridiculous, it made me laugh out loud and how effortlessly it hit 90spl on bass heavy tracks. Have not hit a limiter. The 90db HT's on a buckeye ncx500 are no slouch but it's just no match.
• It's an engaging, forward sound, maybe? Maybe that's called detail, I don't know.
• I just plugged them in, faced them forward and they instantly 'disappeared' at my 7 feet LP. The HTs take a little more adjustment to get that effect. Neat.

They are really impressive, unlike my lousy photos which give only a vague sense of their odd size in my 11x11 multi-use room. More photos tomorrow in sunlight.

I'm a big fan of the Philharmonic Audio HT Towers. I love PA speakers generally for their design, value and artisanal finishes. I've owned all their speakers at one point or another. The HT Tower is my favorite for its diminutive size, high power, and flat response. I own two pair. The second set is my home theater LCR.

I had never tried the HT towers without a subwoofer because they are designed to be paired with a sub. With some DSP/REW I was rewarded with a nice frequency curve and a strong image that smoothly got to 26hz in-room! That's nice extension from my crazy room modes. I didn't miss the sub except on a few super-bass tracks that go below the 26hz, but vey few. I am interested to see how the Genelecs sound when I adjust for a few room modes and whether I can get the same lower extension. They are both on a miniDSP Flex XLR fed by a Wiim Ultra so I can just switch back and forth nearly instantly.

 

[Mort]

Some frequency response plots.

• The Genelec 8361a is orange (and highlighted in upper right)
• The Philharmonic Audio HT is in blue
• The base room (via 8361a) is in red.
  
  
• The room is square and has a lot of glass.
• I use REW generated PEQs and Diraclive on both speakers to tame the room a bit. You are seeing the sum of both.
• I was able to extend the 8361a bass in-room well below the 36hz anechoic, so I won't need a subwoofer for extension or spl - maybe for modes though.
• You can see the legendary flatness of the Genelecs (minus big room modes at 70, 160).

 

[AudioJester]

The Genelec measurements look really good. Those narrow dips wont be a big issue.
You will be surprised what GLM can do.

Can you post base room for Philharmonic? Trying to see why your peq/dirac is so much better with the 8361a compared to Philharmonic.

 

[holdingpants01]

Can you post base room for Philharmonic? Trying to see why your peq/dirac is so much better with the 8361a compared to Philharmonic.

It kind of look like Dirac is not doing anything on HT other than sub 100Hz range

 

[Mort]

The Genelec measurements look really good. Those narrow dips wont be a big issue.
You will be surprised what GLM can do.

Can you post base room for Philharmonic? Trying to see why your peq/dirac is so much better with the 8361a compared to Philharmonic.

I didn't grab that. I'm somewhat new to REW/DiracLive.

I will do it again today, yeah. Thanks for looking. I thought the Genelec curve looked great too. Sounds good too.