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Should hard drugs be decriminalized and then supply pharmaceutical grade drugs to users.

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gene_stl

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In Illinois where I work pot is completely legal. But there are few dispensaries and they seem to be frequently sold out. They seem to be very expensive too. Although compared to the ancient days pot on the street has gotten rather expensive based on my very limited observations.

In Missouri where I live there is medical marijuana. You have to get a card from a doctor. It appears even more expensive. There was a lottery or competition for "licenses" It looks to me like they want to control the amount of supply and who can buy and sell it. This will not crush the organized criminals.

Compared to the USA the UK allowing you to register and get Heroin (tm) from a doctor amounted to legalization. Here Heroin is a trip to jail and prison. I guess they stopped doing it but all these things need to be re-evaluated in light of the substitution of fentanyls for morphine family drugs. They are like ten to 50 times more potent and cause more fatal respiratory depression.
 

Frank Dernie

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The Province of British Columbia in Canada is lobbying the federal government to legalize hard drugs. Many people think this is a solution including the front line medical workers. Cannabis is already legal Canada wide under federal law. The war on hard drugs is not succeeding and there are some thousands of people dead from hard drugs in British Columbia each year. The total amount of hard drugs related deaths around the world must be huge and the perpetrators are not being brought to justice. So legalize or not?
For me people want drugs whether legal or not but if they buy them from criminals they don't really know what they are getting. Whether legalising them would result in more or fewer drug users is debatable - making them legal will reduce the attraction for some.


The British Empire was a big drug dealer (Opium) back in the day to earn money.

IIRC Heroin was only made illegal here in my lifetime due to pressure from other countries and usage has gone up since it has been illegal, not down.

If the dose had to be on the packaging and the product sold legitimately and taxed to be competitive with illegal supply the benefit would be to eliminate the dangerous illegal trade. I'd rather the government got the financial benefit from drug sales by proper controlled manufacture than the criminals that do now.
 

JRS

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I am happy to face all kinds of unpleasant truths, but I don't believe this one.
Well if not active complicity, the history of the DEA here in the US reveals a certain blindness to the organized crime aspect. I would agree, much less so now, and one of the problems is that US drug policy is baked into many UN Treaties which prohibit the legalization of most drugs. What Portugal did required serious huevos. So outright "lobbying" to keep drugs illegal--not so much. There are treaties that need rolling back first.

As opposed to a federal decriminalization, the most likely pathway is for more and more states to go Oregon. I believe now is a wait and see matter for more progressive states, who might be considering following suit.
 

Lambda

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so long as it doesn't impact others. In this regard, the psychedelics enjoy a great safety record and are among the least addictive of all mind altering drugs.
There is always a risk it impact others.
But this is also true with driving a car or drinking or woning a gun or burning fossil fules...
Everything impacts others and some thin put them at direct risk some at indirect statistical risk.

Alcohol increases the risk of domestic violence for example.
Psychedelics have low risk for violence or direct impacts on others. its not Likely you become the next Ted Kaczynski from having a view view Shrooms or some Acid but its not unlikely that you may decide you don’t want to join the military an go to war for Cheap oil.
So this might impacts the society we live in indirectly
 
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mansr

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For me people want drugs whether legal or not but if they buy them from criminals they don't really know what they are getting. Whether legalising them would result in more or fewer drug users is debatable - making them legal will reduce the attraction for some.
I can easily obtain alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, cocaine, etc. Of these, the only one I consume is alcohol. The reason I don't use the rest has nothing to do with legality. I simply don't want to. I'd imagine many others feel similarly, even if their personal choices differ from mine.
 

sq225917

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In the USA the government has an ugly history of using drugs trafficking to fund the more outre aspects of its foreign policy. Its, and the media's, approach to the opioid crisis vs the crack epidemic leaves an unsavoury taste in the mouth.
 
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JRS

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In Illinois where I work pot is completely legal. But there are few dispensaries and they seem to be frequently sold out. They seem to be very expensive too. Although compared to the ancient days pot on the street has gotten rather expensive based on my very limited observations.

In Missouri where I live there is medical marijuana. You have to get a card from a doctor. It appears even more expensive. There was a lottery or competition for "licenses" It looks to me like they want to control the amount of supply and who can buy and sell it. This will not crush the organized criminals.
I don't know about that. When I was in college (mid 1970's) the most potent strain was Thai stick at about 200./oz. For an oz of very high potency, that is >25%, expect to pay 150 to 250 an oz. By comparison, Thai is around 15% and the dollar then worth about 7 today. So call it 20x cheaper. I suspect looking at other famous brands of the time would reveal similar trends. So yea 18 bucks for a gram seems exorbitant, it's only when purchased in small quantities. Granted street dope is still cheaper.
 

JRS

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There is always a risk it impact others.
But this is also true with driving a car or drinking or woning a gun or burning fossil fules...
Everything impacts others and some thin put them at direct risk some at indirect statistical risk.

Alcohol increases the risk of domestic violence for example.
Psychedelics have low risk for violence or direct impacts on others. its not Likely you become the next Ted Kaczynski from having a view view Shrooms or some Acid but its not unlikely that you may decide you don’t want to join the military an go to war for Cheap oil.
So this might impacts the society we live in indirectly
Exactly, in my world alcohol use would be quite circumscribed (strict limits in bars and restaurants with frequent BAC's) and tobacco illegal. What I meant was lets say if a hit of LSD caused you to go on murderous rampages, then it's not for sale. Your point is well taken, but in order to move forward on such a policy requires some political savvy--there is a lot of resistance to this notion, and you can bet the booze bandits aren't on board.

And you won't get any arguments from me regarding the safety of psychedelics--they have never been that dangerous, it's only that the "establishment" viewed their use as threatening to the status quo. Leary didn't help. The acid acolyte was a major setback to legitimate research. One can't be handing shit out to graduate students and telling youth to go get blow their minds. And that whole era still reverberates in the political environment in the US, i.e. it promotes radicalism.
 
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Doodski

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As a Canadian I can tell you first hand legislation of Pot has been a clusterfxxx. In no way has it slowed the black market.

I’d much rather see a marked increase in mental health services before we go the next step.

There is also a big push on to legalize magic mushrooms which I wouldn’t have an issue with.
The Canadian expense of buying for example a ounce (28g) of cannabis from the legal cannabis store is ~$85-$120 for 20% THC depending on the price that day and the specific cannabis one is buying. If purchasing from a illegal dealer they want $200/ounce. I was told that by a illegal dealer. He said it's because they don't really want to sell ounces. He said they are selling grams and 3.5 grams and maybe 7 grams quantities. I never buy illegal stuff. I just buy legal 7-28 gram quantities and spread the use out over say a week or a month. It seemed too me that the illegal dealer was trying to sell me on some sort of brotherly and political affiliation with the underground market as if the gov issue stuff was undesirable even if it costs less.

Mushrooms are great and should be legalized too.
 

JRS

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For me people want drugs whether legal or not but if they buy them from criminals they don't really know what they are getting. Whether legalising them would result in more or fewer drug users is debatable - making them legal will reduce the attraction for some.


The British Empire was a big drug dealer (Opium) back in the day to earn money.

IIRC Heroin was only made illegal here in my lifetime due to pressure from other countries and usage has gone up since it has been illegal, not down.

If the dose had to be on the packaging and the product sold legitimately and taxed to be competitive with illegal supply the benefit would be to eliminate the dangerous illegal trade. I'd rather the government got the financial benefit from drug sales by proper controlled manufacture than the criminals that do now.
I don't think other countries had anything at all to do with it. If anything along those lines, it was a racist policy aimed primarily at Asians and curbing immigration, but also Blacks. Prior to criminalization you could buy the stuff over the counter in literally dozens of products.

For Blacks it was mostly about Marijuana. While it's tempting to dismiss this out of hand as some CRT "nonsense," if you look into the history in any depth, it makes for a compelling case. More recently, the racist aspect reared it's ugly head in the Clinton drug policies that took a very different view of cocaine when snorted vs smoked. Unfortunately, differential enforcement has destroyed some neighborhoods while largely sparing others and still shreds minority families well beyond any difference in the rates of use/addiction.

Unfortunately for us, the demonization of drugs had an adverse impact on music--can you imagine a singer the stature of Billie H. not being allowed to work because of drug use?

So back to music and the great equipment we use to enjoy it.
 

audio2design

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Canada legalized marijuana. The world didn't end, and I am still waiting for some entrepreneur to create a strain that does not smell like skunk ... for other people. It's not my thing.

Too many people in the world are obsessed with telling other people what to do. Not because it really benefits them in any direct matter, but they see themselves as the morality police whether they admit it or not. Does not matter if they identify with being right wing or left wing, they are obsessed with telling other people what to do. Power is the ultimate drug.

There does not seem to be much evidence that legalization leads to any long term increase in usage and for harder drugs, it seems to decrease usage which should be the intended outcome. There is a difference between telling someone what to do, and providing an environment where they can thrive but make their own decisions

I think most "reasonable" people, you can set reasonable limits. Things that border on chemical weapons (fentanyl, carfentenyl), I think we can agree to keep banned, as the risk of adverse outcomes is too high, and that impacts those not adults who society has a duty to protect. The issue today, is the lack of ability to have "reasonable" discussions, whether about drugs, guns, mitigating climate change, whatever. It is sort of weird, because probably 75% of people have similar opinions or could agree on reasonable restrictions if discussed. Most everyone agrees there should be significant and detailed background checks on gun purchases, but they are not universal. Both sides use as a wedge issue.
 

Frank Dernie

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I don't think other countries had anything at all to do with it. If anything along those lines, it was a racist policy aimed primarily at Asians and curbing immigration, but also Blacks. Prior to criminalization you could buy the stuff over the counter in literally dozens of products.

For Blacks it was mostly about Marijuana. While it's tempting to dismiss this out of hand as some CRT "nonsense," if you look into the history in any depth, it makes for a compelling case. More recently, the racist aspect reared it's ugly head in the Clinton drug policies that took a very different view of cocaine when snorted vs smoked. Unfortunately, differential enforcement has destroyed some neighborhoods while largely sparing others and still shreds minority families well beyond any difference in the rates of use/addiction.

Unfortunately for us, the demonization of drugs had an adverse impact on music--can you imagine a singer the stature of Billie H. not being allowed to work because of drug use?

So back to music and the great equipment we use to enjoy it.
I thought it was clear in my post I was talking about here, not the USA. Sorry I wasn't clear enough. I live in the UK.

The drug laws in the USA are of little interest to me apart from the fact that I belive it was the US which leant on us to ban Heroin.

If anything it is proof that banning a drug doesn't reduce consumption since Heroin use is much higher here than it was when it was still legal.

The USA's dalliance with prohibition is ample evidence that making something people want illegal doesn't reduce consumption it just gives an opportunity to criminals.
I have always thought it stupid that the blatantly obvious lesson we can learn from that is ignored for doctrinaire reasons.
 

MRC01

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The USA's dalliance with prohibition is ample evidence that making something people want illegal doesn't reduce consumption it just gives an opportunity to criminals. I have always thought it stupid that the blatantly obvious lesson we can learn from that is ignored for doctrinaire reasons.
Amen. Can we learn from past mistakes? Apparently not.

Also, an interesting historical observation on US government. Back when prohibition was passed, they got a constitutional amendment (the 18th amendment), not just an act of Congress, because they knew that nothing in the Constitution authorized the federal government to ban alcohol (or other drugs). And when prohibition ended, they passed another constitutional amendment (the 21st amendment).

Yet decades later when drug prohibition started, they did no such thing. The Constitution hasn't changed, so one could say that federal drug prohibition laws are unconstitutional. The fact that nobody takes this view shows how the views on power of the federal govt have changed. It used to be commonly believed that the federal government is one of enumerated powers, meaning it has no powers except those granted by the constitution. Over the years this view has reversed and it is now commonly believed that the federal govt has the power to do anything except what is expressly prohibited by the constitution.
 

JRS

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I thought it was clear in my post I was talking about here, not the USA. Sorry I wasn't clear enough. I live in the UK.

The drug laws in the USA are of little interest to me apart from the fact that I belive it was the US which leant on us to ban Heroin.

If anything it is proof that banning a drug doesn't reduce consumption since Heroin use is much higher here than it was when it was still legal.

The USA's dalliance with prohibition is ample evidence that making something people want illegal doesn't reduce consumption it just gives an opportunity to criminals.
My bad. Too many threads and I unravel. I was 14 or so at the time and remember the heroin publicity, and for sure it was us. Nixon was in power and it was all about law and order--later, there was a UN convention in 71 and an overhaul in 72 regarding member nations and drug policy. (The first was in 61). One other thing that seemed humane was the cancer cocktail--now this is like a 50 year old memory, so no quotes: but IIRC contained heroin (or another opiate), alcohol, LSD and maybe cocaine. Just in the past few years we have tried psilocybin with terminal cancer patients and the success was off the charts in terms of anxiety reduction, coming to terms with death, spirituality generally. I believe 2/3'rds ranked it as one of the top three experiences in their lifetime. Pity one has to be full of cancer for this to be legit therapy.
 
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Doodski

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Just in the past few years we have tried psilocybin
I believe 2/3'rds ranked it as one of the top three experiences in their lifetime.
I gobble down 7 grams at a time in a tea, with something to eat or I just munch on raw shrooms till it's ready to swallow and voila. One can purchase "spore kits" online. The kit that has everything required to grow a fair quantity of magic shrooms.
 
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Sal1950

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I support full legalization but not free government supply, because that means forcing me and other non-users to pay for the drugs other people use
Same here, I don't want to pay for someone else party. Besides I belive reasonable pricing along the lines of alcohol does have some effect to temper abuse
The Canadian expense of buying for example a ounce (28g) of cannabis from the legal cannabis store is ~$85-$120 for 20% THC depending on the price that day and the specific cannabis one is buying.
Damn that's cheap, running around $100 = 7g for me.
 

Sal1950

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I gobble down 7 grams at a time in a tea, with something to eat or I just munch on raw shrooms till it's ready to swallow and voila. One can purchase "spore kits" online. The is a kit that has everything required to grow a fair quantity of magic shrooms.
I haven't seen any shroooms since the 70s.
This tread is becoming very educational. :p
 
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Doodski

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Damn that's cheap, running around $100 = 7g for me.
Check this page for 20% THC 28g at $86.24 ($3.08/g)
I smoke the TWD brand stuff in sativa (major munchies weed) and indica too and it's the bomb.
I smoke weed near everyday at $3.08 a gram.
 
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Sal1950

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Check this page for 20% THC 28g at $86.24 ($3.08/g)
I smoke the TWD brand stuff in sativa (major munchies weed) and indica too and it's the bomb.
I smoke weed near everyday at $3.08 a gram.
Yea sure, it's all fun and games in Canada.
I don't like you very much right now. LOL
 
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