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Should amplifier output be restricted to the max power rating of the speaker?

Since you are using a Flex 8, have you considered/tried using the compressor?
@NTK That's a fantastic idea.

I'm unfamiliar with how compressors/limiters work and wasn't able to figure out what to do with just the info in the manual. I contacted MiniDSP support but they weren't helpful.

I'd welcome any tips about how to use that functionality.
 
Correct me if I’m wrong:
It is my understanding that an underpowered amp is more detrimental than one with more power.
In other words, it is better to have more power with more headroom.
Less power risks clipping and hence more chance of damage.

Not always true, it depends on the specific use case. For example, but just one example, if have a speaker such as the KEF R11, the specs simply say:
Amplifier Power
15-300W (recommended)

So, in that case if you have a 20 W rated amp, you might say it is underpowered, except for near field use and you don't listen very loud, but compare to an amp rated 500 W, that 20 W will likely not blow the speaker even if you turn the volume to maximum, and the little amp would be clipping badly, but the 500 W can definitely damage the R11 if you do the same with the volume dial, even though the amp may not be clipping at all. It is a silly extreme example though, just to show that it depends.

So there is nothing to correct you as you are neither wrong or right.:D
 
What I've learned from this thread is:
the driver (or speaker) specs can't be trusted to be useful for that purpose
most of the time, the power being used is so small that the concern is more hypothetical than real

The T/S parameters are valuable, especially for modeling the box. However when you go active you need something like the Dayton Audio (or need to design a new passive crossover) DATs 3, it will give you the full suit of measurements you need and don't have to worry about variations from the T/S parameters or a bad deiver.

They have a more automated system, but @ $699, I'd stick to the manual DATS over the DATS LA. Erin still uses his DATs 3 for individual driver measurements, along with a majority of speaker designers in DIY and smaller audio companies.
 
Compression won't help.

Compression and limiting "push down" the peaks and loud parts, allowing everything to go louder (i.e. more average power) without clipping.
 
Do you connect the woofer polarity 180 degrees from that of the midrange or tweeter because of the capacitors? Are all the amplifiers input fed full range or do you apply any active crossover as such or pass filtering before being amplified?
@Jose Jimenez

The DSP sends different signals to the different drivers. Here are the crossovers and filters I've configured:
Tweeter to midrange
  • 4500 Hz
  • Midrange has has a L-R 48 dB/octave low pass filter
  • Tweeter has a L-R 48 dB/octave high pass filter
  • No HPF on the tweeter
Midrange to woofer
  • 400 Hz
  • Woofer has a L-R 48 dB/octave low pass filter.
  • Midrange has a Buttterworth 6 dB/octave high pass filter
Woofer to subwoofer
  • 80 Hz
  • Woofer has no filter applied; it just runs off
  • Subwoofer has a Butterworth 48 dB/octave high pass filter
  • No LPF on the subwoofer
Why do I have such an odd mix of filter types and slopes? Through a process of trial and error they gave me the flattest SPL/frequency.

I worked with REW to find the best polarity and delay settings.
  • I didn't do anything with respect to polarity on account of the capacitors.
  • The tweeters and midranges are delayed to time-align with the woofers.
  • The woofer and tweeter are normal (i.e., 0 degree) polarity; the midrange polarity is inverted (i.e., 180 degrees).
 
Depends if you are an ESL-57 owner
For those that aren't aware this is because electrostatics have a fairly specific maximum voltage, and exceeding it will cause arcing which will cause local damage to the diaphragm. IIRC early versions relied on Quad's amps having limited output voltage below the 57's maximum, while later versions has an internal limiter board to protect the speaker, possibly at the expense of the amp. More recent electrostatics often have other sorts of arc protection, like insulation on the stators. This is a different situation to conventional cone and coil drivers where you're trying to avoid either driving the coil into hard excursion limits (slamming the coil into the magnet or other hard end-stops) or avoiding over-heating the coil to the point where permanent damage occurs. The latter is very much a dynamic process with typical music signals, and in modern active speakers there is often a model-based protection that involves characterising the driver to allow short peaks while limiting longer term power to avoid overheating.
 
The DSP sends different signals to the different drivers. Here are the crossovers and filters I've configured:
IMO - It's a good idea to add a capacitor in series with the midrange and tweeter as a high-pass filter in case the "unexpected" happens. The cutoff frequency should be lower than your DSP crossover frequencies so it doesn't affect the normal DSP operation.
 
Compression won't help.

Compression and limiting "push down" the peaks and loud parts, allowing everything to go louder (i.e. more average power) without clipping.
I think it should work. Even in miniDSP's manual protecting speaker driver is given as the first example application.

If the limiter with a high ratio value (hard limiting), it should be the same as having a lower power amplifier that clips clean and hard. And we know from Alex Voishvillo's research that hard clipping is not particularly unpleasant (contrary to popular belief). If a lower value of ratio is used, it will become soft clip.

1774661742619.png


index.php
 
If the limiter with a high ratio value (hard limiting), it should be the same as having a lower power amplifier that clips clean and hard.
The rate at which the gain can change in a compressor/limiter is limited by the attack and release time parameters. It doesn't clip the waveform like a clipping amp.
 
I think it should work. Even in miniDSP's manual protecting speaker driver is given as the first example application.

If the limiter with a high ratio value (hard limiting), it should be the same as having a lower power amplifier that clips clean and hard. And we know from Alex Voishvillo's research that hard clipping is not particularly unpleasant (contrary to popular belief). If a lower value of ratio is used, it will become soft clip.

View attachment 520824
@NTK @bmc0 I had hoped to use the Compressors in my MiniDSP Flex 8 DSP to restrict the amplitude of the DSP's output signal amplitude from 2V RMS (at 0 db FS) to match the input sensitivity of my amps (0.775V RMS, according to the manufacturer).

I could figure out that going from 2V to .775V was -8.3 dB (i.e., -8.3 = 20log(.775/2.000)) but I had no idea what one would use for the required "Ratio", "Attack Time", and "Release Time" settings. Since I couldn't make sense of the info in the User Manual, I wrote to MiniDSP's support group asking what I should use.

The support group responded quickly and told me to use:
  • Threshold = -9 dB FS (since only whole numbers are supported)
  • Ratio = 50
  • Attack time = 15 ms
  • Release time = 15 ms
I didn't (and still don't) understand how the values for Ratio, Attack time, and Release time were determined.

Although that would allow me to address one problem (amplitude of DSP output signals being much higher than the input sensitivity of the amps), it still left me needing a solution to keep from blowing the drivers by having the amp deliver more current and/or higher voltage than the drivers were rated for. That led me to create this thread, asking "Should amplifier output be restricted to the max power rating of the speaker?".

Among the learnings that I've had from this thread are:
  • the driver (or speaker) max power ratings specs can't be trusted/aren’t useful in determining a safe/unsafe boundary
  • most of the time, the power being used is so small that the concern should be more hypothetical than real
I'd still like to be able to protect the drivers so that they can't be overdriven, but it seems that may not be feasible.
 
Last edited:
@NTK @bmc0 I had hoped to use the Compressors in my MiniDSP Flex 8 DSP to restrict the amplitude of the DSP's output signal amplitude from 2V RMS (at 0 db FS) to match the input sensitivity of my amps (0.775V RMS, according to the manufacturer).

I could figure out that going from 2V to .775V was -8.3 dB (i.e., -8.3 = 20log(.775/2.000)) but I had no idea what one would use for the required "Ratio", "Attack Time", and "Release Time" settings. Since I couldn't make sense of the info in the User Manual, I wrote to MiniDSP's support group asking what I should use.

The support group responded quickly and told me to use:
  • Threshold = -9 dB FS (since only whole numbers are supported)
  • Ratio = 50
  • Attack time = 15 ms
  • Release time = 15 ms
I didn't (and still don't) understand how the values for Ratio, Attack time, and Release time were determined.

Although that would allow me to address one problem (amplitude of DSP output signals being much higher than the input sensitivity of the amps), it still left me needing a solution to keep from blowing the drivers by having the amp deliver more current and/or higher voltage than the drivers were rated for. That led to me creating this thread, asking "Should amplifier output be restricted to the max power rating of the speaker?".

Among the learnings that I've had from this thread are:
  • the driver (or speaker) specs can't be trusted to be useful in determining a safe/unsafe boundary
  • most of the time, the power being used is so small that the concern should be more hypothetical than real
I'd still like to be able to protect the drivers so that they can't be overdriven, but it seems that may not be feasible.

What about adding a resistor to the circuit, that would give you a solution for this issue?
 
The attack time determines how quickly the overshoot (see figure below) decays to the compressed level. The release time determines how quickly recovery is. In the class notes I found through a web search below, it suggests a attack time of 40 ms and release time of 135 ms to match the human auditory reflex. But a faster attack will provide better protection.

I'd suggest you experiment with it. Start with a low threshold level (so the limiter activates very frequently), and see how it sounds and how loud it gets. Progressively increase the threshold until you find the setting that it will limit the volume to not exceed your desired maximum, and minimizes degradation to sound quality at normal listening levels.
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/courses/192b/192b_Lecture_1_18.pdf

1774667455074.png
 
In my case, I am running a tri-amped 3-way system, where the tweeters are driven by one amp, the midranges are driven by another, and the woofers are driven by the third amp. Here is the info for each of the drivers in my system:
I, too, am running tri-amped but in a completely different way:
One stereo NAD 2200 amp for the pair of Dahlquist M-905 mains 8" ported woofer & tweeter.
And one PROTON D1200 amp for each of the DYI 12" dual 4 ohm voice coil (configured to operate as if a singe 4 ohm load) floor firing (speaker and port [FR 20-80 Hz).
First a bit about the M-905's (and then about their amp):
The nominal system impedance is 8 ohms (6 ohms minimum), and the M-905 is recommended for use with amplifiers rated to deliver from
20 to 125 watts per channel.
The 8-inch woofer of the M-905 is a polyvinyl-acetate-laminated cone operating in a vented enclosure. The outlet of its tuned port is on the front panel of the speaker cabinet.
At 2,500 Hz there is a crossover to a 1-inch soft-dome tweeter.
The wall panels are of varying thickness, and there is special internal damping and bracing designed to suit the individual characteristics of the drivers in the system, all to minimize coloration of the sound by the box. The front panel is coated with a black flocking material whose thousands of fibers are electrostatically aligned perpendicular to its surface during application. The flocking and the flush-mounting of the tweeter are said to minimize diffraction from front-panel discontinuities, preserving image focus.
Actual measurements:
There is a very small bass-resonance peak. At the system resonance of 60 Hz, the output is only about 2 dB above its average level in the upper part of the woofer’s range, (even that minor output variation was spread over almost two octaves). When the bass curve was spliced to the room-response measurement, the resulting composite frequency response was flat within about ±2 dB from 26 to 20,000 Hz. The horizontal directivity of the tweeter was only discernible in the room measurement above 10,000 Hz.
Minimum impedance is about 4.8 ohms in the 8,000-10,000-Hz region, and it measured 7 ohms at 150 to 200 Hz. The maximum impedance was 28 ohms at 60 Hz, and there was a broad peak of 18 ohms in the vicinity of 1,500 Hz.
The woofer’s distortion with a 4-volt drive level, corresponding to a 90-dB SPL at 1 meter. The distortion was less than 1 percent from 100 Hz down to almost 60 Hz, the effective crossover to the port. Below that crossover the distortion rose to 5 percent at 45 Hz and 9 percent at 35 Hz.
Quasi-anechoic FFT measurements showed an overall group-delay variation of about 0.1 millisecond between 4,000 and 20,000 Hz and 0.5 ms between 1,000 and 20.000 Hz, convincing evidence of the attention paid to the phase characteristics of the M-905.
IMPORTANT to @Dave TR3A:
In high-power tests with single-cycle tone bursts, the woofer began to sound “hard” at about 350 watts into its 8.5-ohm impedance at 100 Hz.
At higher frequencies the amplifier clipped—at outputs of 490 watts at 1,000 Hz and 1,380 watts at 10,000 Hz—before distortion became visible on the acoustic waveform.
The NAD 2200 AMP DYNO TEST:
The DYI subs have a HP of 55Hz and a LP of 70 Hz & each one gets its own PROTON D1200 amp running at 4 OHMs bridged mono. And are rated to handle over 2000 watts EA.
Here is a PROTON D1200 on the AMP DYNO:
As you can see, there is a large discrepancy between what the speaker designer suggests for power and what the speaker can actually handle.
But, you, as the operator, must use discretion.
 
Haven't looked thru the responses but trust many work well....but more curious, why did you think a vague max rating on a speaker was a reason to limit your amp choice? I certainly would like more power than I need with any one room or speaker....
 
IMPORTANT to @Dave TR3A:

<most of post deleted>

As you can see, there is a large discrepancy between what the speaker designer suggests for power and what the speaker can actually handle.
But, you, as the operator, must use discretion.
Agreed.

This thread has been very helpful. I've learned that:
  1. the driver (or speaker) max. power ratings can't be trusted to be useful
  2. most of the time, the power being used is so small that the concern (about limiting power) is more hypothetical than real
I also learned that I had misunderstood what input sensitivity was. I had thought that it was the level needed to drive the amp to maximum power before distorting (particularly clipping) when in fact it's the level at which a specified distortion is reached. The published input sensitivity is often well past the onset of clipping.
 
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While the theory is solid about no underpowered amp should toast a speaker, practice shows otherwise.

Just a look at these old "all-in-one" systems with their joke of an amp and the tiny percentage of the surviving tweeters are enough evidence.
Square waves are not a good idea.
 
Agreed.

This thread has been very helpful. I've learned that:
  1. the driver (or speaker) max. power ratings can't be trusted to be useful
  2. most of the time, the power being used is so small that the concern (about limiting power) is more hypothetical than real
I also learned that I had misunderstood what input sensitivity was. I had thought that it was the level needed to drive the amp to maximum power before distorting (particularly clipping) when in fact it's the level at which a specified distortion is reached. The published input sensitivity is often well past the onset of clipping.
Something that I failed to mention about my Dahlquist M-905's before (because I have NEVER had them go into action, so almost never give them a thought, although maybe once every 10 years or so, I think about them and change them):
The drivers are protected by individual fuses (0.8 ampere for the tweeter and 3 ampere for the woofer) from the factory.
As a 0.8 ampere is difficult to find, the factory recommended the following:

AGC .75 Fast Acting Fuse.
Replaces AGC .8 Fast Acting Fuse.

AGC 3 Fast Acting Fuse.


And, for those of us running vintage gear, parts are always a consideration, so I just checked the availability of mine:
As of moments ago, these are available parts for my speakers (if you have other models of Dahlquist speakers, they have a lot of parts availability (naturally, some parts of some of the speakers they made, are no longer available):
The following DQM-905 parts are available at our online store:

Tweeter (Replacement)

Woofer (Replacement)

Fuse holders

Fuses: Tweeter AGC .75 (replaces AGC .8)

Fuses: Main AGC 3

Grille Cloth

Upgrade Kit

Owner's Manual


DQ Dahlquist is a registered trademark of Regnar Hi Fidelity
 
I'd still like to be able to protect the drivers so that they can't be overdriven, but it seems that may not be feasible.
Since you seem quite worried by distrust in your family members' common sense, but adequately fluent with all associated calculations, determine the proper line level voltage divider values and solder into your amps' cable connectors for ultimate protection of your, likely almost irreplaceable, precious vintage drivers and be done with sweating about it, then put on some nice tunes to relax.
 
Solder WHAT into the amps' cables)

> proper line level voltage divider values

is there a link that could help explain what this means, how to do such a calculation?

Since you seem quite worried by distrust in your family members' common sense, but adequately fluent with all associated calculations, determine the proper line level voltage divider values and solder into your amps' cable connectors for ultimate protection of your, likely almost irreplaceable, precious vintage drivers and be done with sweating about it, then put on some nice tunes to relax.
 
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