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Shootout between JBL M2 and Revel Salon 2

Old Listener

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I have had speakers with ally enclosures for 20 years.

My Waveform Mach 17 speakers have mid range and tweeters in cast aluminium eggs. I've had them almost 20 years.

DSC_8533-XL.jpg
 

watchnerd

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But tis a fact that "stereo" has been a waste of money, space, and time for 99% of the population. Even back in the hey-day of HiFi when the first thing everyone got after the TV (maybe even before a TV) was a component rig, not 1 in 100 set them up to image. One speaker get placed over in a corner while the other was next to the listening chair for a coffee table. It was only the nerds like us that read the HiFi magazines like Audio and Stereo Review that even knew the WHY of stereo, all the rest knew was how cool it was for the drums to come out of one speaker and guitar the other..

Or, even if the speakers were set up in a side by side fashion, the listening position would be orthogonal to the speakers.

The modern "no stereo" equivalent is the sound bar, placed under the flat screen TV.

Sure, it usually has multiple drivers, but they're all so close together there is no real separation.
 

ChrisH

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Ahh.
Mine are complex, with flat 10mm plate, tapped blind holes and "O" ring grooves, held together with loads of machine cap screws through drilled metal batons and with tension bars tensioning on the internal walls with turnbuckles. I think the baseplate may be brass too, for some reason.
Pre free availability of NC machines this was probably the best way to make them in small batches.
Nowadays and for bigger volume production it would be lunacy!

About 3 years ago a friend and me made some enclosure out of aluminum. We CNC'd the baffle, curved the sidewalls (this was the most difficult part), and welded everything together. No screws at all. We used 1/2" and 1/4" plate for the enclosure. We also used a product called Mascoat to eat the vibration of the aluminum.
 

watchnerd

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But tis a fact that "stereo" has been a waste of money, space, and time for 99% of the population. Even back in the hey-day of HiFi when the first thing everyone got after the TV (maybe even before a TV) was a component rig, not 1 in 100 set them up to image. One speaker get placed over in a corner while the other was next to the listening chair for a coffee table. It was only the nerds like us that read the HiFi magazines like Audio and Stereo Review that even knew the WHY of stereo, all the rest knew was how cool it was for the drums to come out of one speaker and guitar the other..

Oh, and I have some friends who just bought one of these for their living room (not bedroom or kitchen) and love it:

The-Capitol-Three_Blonde_Angle-Front-2.jpg


It's turnkey hipster ready, with USB, Wifi, Bluetooth, and PHONO inputs.

I expected to hate it, but it sounded better than I expected at moderate volumes (as long as it wasn't bass heavy). And for the price it was pretty damn good.

It wasn't hi-fi, but much better than Bose.
 

Blumlein 88

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Or, even if the speakers were set up in a side by side fashion, the listening position would be orthogonal to the speakers.

The modern "no stereo" equivalent is the sound bar, placed under the flat screen TV.

Sure, it usually has multiple drivers, but they're all so close together there is no real separation.

I actually beg to differ. I have heard several such 'soundbars' and they do have some fair separation. They don't sound great, and they don't have world class separation. But they are real stereo. You will often hear stereo effect as if the speakers were twice as far apart as the soundbar is wide.
 

Blumlein 88

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My Waveform Mach 17 speakers have mid range and tweeters in cast aluminium eggs. I've had them almost 20 years.

DSC_8533-XL.jpg

I have read about these for years, but never ran across any in person. Quite the interesting speaker.
 

Blumlein 88

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About 3 years ago a friend and me made some enclosure out of aluminum. We CNC'd the baffle, curved the sidewalls (this was the most difficult part), and welded everything together. No screws at all. We used 1/2" and 1/4" plate for the enclosure. We also used a product called Mascoat to eat the vibration of the aluminum.

Don't leave us hanging man. So how did they perform once they were finished?
 

watchnerd

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I actually beg to differ. I have heard several such 'soundbars' and they do have some fair separation. They don't sound great, and they don't have world class separation. But they are real stereo. You will often hear stereo effect as if the speakers were twice as far apart as the soundbar is wide.

Maybe I've only heard the crappier ones.
 

ChrisH

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Don't leave us hanging man. So how did they perform once they were finished?

They are a 3 way bookshelf speaker from Selah Audio, they are called Tempesta. Rick Craig, the designer, worked with me to make them active. I use a Deqx to run all the crossover stuff, and use class D amps to power the whole thing.

How do they perform? Well, I haven't remotely looked at , or had any desire to to change them. No upgrade-itis at all. They still boggle my mind to this day, every time I listen to music.
 

Sal1950

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Or, even if the speakers were set up in a side by side fashion, the listening position would be orthogonal to the speakers.

The modern "no stereo" equivalent is the sound bar, placed under the flat screen TV.

Sure, it usually has multiple drivers, but they're all so close together there is no real separation.
I actually beg to differ. I have heard several such 'soundbars' and they do have some fair separation. They don't sound great, and they don't have world class separation. But they are real stereo. You will often hear stereo effect as if the speakers were twice as far apart as the soundbar is wide.

Look at the latest soundbars with 7.1 + ATMOS, Amazing
ROTFLMAO

Got to differ with you there Dennis, I wouldn't call it real stereo,. They make for some fancy effects using phasing and such but you don't get a genuine surround sound system, let alone 'real stereo" reproduction from a 18-24" sound bar. In the main just a bunch of marketing hype to appease the wife's of guys that don't have the balls to stand up to them. LOL
 

Sal1950

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Oh, and I have some friends who just bought one of these for their living room (not bedroom or kitchen) and love it:

The-Capitol-Three_Blonde_Angle-Front-2.jpg


It's turnkey hipster ready, with USB, Wifi, Bluetooth, and PHONO inputs.

I expected to hate it, but it sounded better than I expected at moderate volumes (as long as it wasn't bass heavy). And for the price it was pretty damn good.

It wasn't hi-fi, but much better than Bose.
Klipsch The Three has been a pretty big hit in the media. Even Chris at CA did a full review and gave it a rave, even for it's SQ!?
Haven't heard it myself but looks like a great low cost product that can offer good single point sound via all the latest wireless tech.
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/ca/reviews/klipsch-the-three-review/
Brings to mind the focus of the original Henry Kloss designed line of FM radios, a small mono box zeroing in on offering the best possible sound from a minimal footprint.
KLH%2BModel%2B21%2Bfront.JPG
 

Frank Dernie

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About 3 years ago a friend and me made some enclosure out of aluminum. We CNC'd the baffle, curved the sidewalls (this was the most difficult part), and welded everything together. No screws at all. We used 1/2" and 1/4" plate for the enclosure. We also used a product called Mascoat to eat the vibration of the aluminum.
Interesting to know how well mascoat works. Bolted junctions, if correctly tightened, have lots of damping, welded almost none and over-tightened bolts much less than correctly installed ones.
There was a fad a few years ago to reef up bolts on speakers almost to failure (and past it by accident on plenty I have seen) to "increase rigidity". Over tightening bolts has zero effect on rigidity, just reduces damping in the joint - I guess its proponents liked the effect of higher amplitude in their resonances :)
 

ChrisH

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Interesting to know how well mascoat works. Bolted junctions, if correctly tightened, have lots of damping, welded almost none and over-tightened bolts much less than correctly installed ones.
There was a fad a few years ago to reef up bolts on speakers almost to failure (and past it by accident on plenty I have seen) to "increase rigidity". Over tightening bolts has zero effect on rigidity, just reduces damping in the joint - I guess its proponents liked the effect of higher amplitude in their resonances :)

Mascoat is pretty amazing stuff. I've heard it deaden a bell. Liberal amounts were applied to the entire interior enclosure, then allowed to cure and off gas for two weeks. I would love to get my enclosure tested and see how it performs. Thankfully, I didn't have buy the Mascoat. It's crazy expensive. My friend who fabricated them, works for a custom aluminum boat manufacturer and we were able to obtain some free of charge.We hoped curving the sidewalls would help with rigidity, internal reflections and push any resonances higher in the spectrum.
Here is a nice video of MascoatDB

I do have measurements of my speakers, but they not professional in any way.
 

NorthSky

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I don't know how many of you here are following attentively that thread over there, but I don't miss a single post myself.
The authority in audio @ Harman is starting to be questioned by some wise axes. It's fair game because it's a public forum; it's audio science @ the service of the arts of acoustical knowledge. Everything @ AVS is for the benefit of audio science education. ...Just like here @ ASR.

Today is so hot here, almost 40° Celsius, that the best way to cool off is by swimming underwater.
In Ireland it's the other way around; it is raining a lot.

Four subs in the four corners beat five subs in non-corners. Do you agree, and if yes did you check?
 

DonH56

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I have four subs in non-corners. Best position in my room for response (measured) and aesthetics. You give up energy if they are not in the corners, meaning more power needed, but can achieve good in-room response either way (depending upon the shape of the room and such). Given the expected bass boost from corner placement, I can well believe that four corner subs may provide more SPL than five non-corner subs, but response? Hmmm... Suspect you could get as flat either way depending on the room and MLP.

I was in Vancouver a couple of weeks ago, but only to shuttle from ship to airport. Would have liked to stay another day but wasn't in the schedule.
 

Blumlein 88

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Mascoat is pretty amazing stuff. I've heard it deaden a bell. Liberal amounts were applied to the entire interior enclosure, then allowed to cure and off gas for two weeks. I would love to get my enclosure tested and see how it performs. Thankfully, I didn't have buy the Mascoat. It's crazy expensive. My friend who fabricated them, works for a custom aluminum boat manufacturer and we were able to obtain some free of charge.We hoped curving the sidewalls would help with rigidity, internal reflections and push any resonances higher in the spectrum.
Here is a nice video of MascoatDB

I do have measurements of my speakers, but they not professional in any way.

You'd be surprised on metal panels how little damping it takes sometimes.

An inexpensive material I have used is rolled vinyl flooring (sometimes called linoleum). Usually attach it with contact cement. In fact, you probably could have covered that panel in the video in strips with only about 1/3 surface area and the thing would be very dead. Obviously you want it inside where it doesn't show.
 

NorthSky

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It has been hot and sunny in Vancouver for the last few months now. I'm on the Island myself, south near Victoria, and today it was almost 40 Celsius outside on the deck overlooking the mountains and ocean and whales and eagles and spirit of the Great White North.
_____

* Bonus: http://lexicon.com/newsdetail/~/item/soundsteer-technology-from-lexicon.html
http://www.aes.org/
_____

I have read all Floyd Toole's posts and yours too Don. I am expanding my audio knowledge from the audio experts' wisdom. /// And scientific experience, of course.
The thread is fascinating, with many passionate feedback from some of the most intelligent audio people in the acoustic business.
It's a must read thread @ AVS, the very best one in a long time...thanks to Dr. Floyd E. Toole in participating with great enthusiasm and generosity.
_____

I have all Dr. Toole's posts in one file of my PC. ...With all the best links provided. I used to post them on one site but people can easily read and take what they need.
And here I am pretty sure that people like you, Amir and I are keeping track of everything audio science and acoustics related.
This is my hobby.
_____

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...iewed-speakers-ever-made-36.html#post54687370
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...iewed-speakers-ever-made-37.html#post54688302
_____

Again, the thread is a must read, because it saves time in exploring and experimenting; Floyd and his team @ Harman already did all the hard work.
It's just good common sense with the best scientific theories backed up by extensive measurements and the best trained ears in the business.
Organ music with opera and chorals are awaiting all of us in all their full glory.

It's a beautiful timing to be alive on this beautiful blue planet full of smart blu people. Spread the good news to the four corners of the globe, from Venezuela to North Korea to India and Saudi Arabia.
 

NorthSky

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http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...rate-well-reviewed-speakers-ever-made-41.html

41 pages, 1,212 posts, some of the most educational threads over @ AVSForum. No fight, no mods breaking the party, no stupid rules about about prices (books), no nothing to divert us into the abyss of controlled dictatorship. ...Perfect freedom in a free world, in the interest of learning and advancing.

Wow, it's been some achievement over the last [strike]twenty[/strike] eighteen (roughly) years @ AVSF!
So little time so much still to gain.
 
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amirm

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I see localhost127 has shown up. He is one of the most disruptive individuals in that discussion. I have wrestled him to the ground there and on gearslutz but takes a ton of effort and the guy can be very rude (and used to insult Dr. Toole left and right). Fortunately he just parrots what he has read. At the time he didn't even have an audio system and lived in a small apartment.

I think he will drag the conversation down.

BTW, I made all of those points that Dr. Toole is making when I was active on AVS. There was a cult there that did not want to hear it and fought it tooth and nail. I don't see them in that thread but wonder how long it will be before they show up.

Agree that so far what is accomplished there is very counter to norm at AVS.
 

DonH56

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Hope it stays clean, we'll see... Wish you were still there, Amir.

Bob, thanks for the kind words, but my posts in that thread are insignificant. Not my area of expertise.
 
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