Shootout between JBL M2 and Revel Salon 2

[NorthSky]

John started the thread well; that's important, and he keeps an alert eye (civility) to it.

Don you contribute your experience, your friendship; that is a lot of quality.
I too wish Amir was still there. And there are many other great people that should not have ever been banned. I can name many, and it leaves a sour taste in the good audio/video community of intelligent people.
But then, we have seen the waves over the years, waves of aggression, bullying, gang streets, violence, dictatorship, audio monopoly business, wrong attitudes and philosophy by some snobs and nobs and shots who need an education. Best to be free without grudges; life's more important with family and real friends.

Ok, back to our topic.

My prayers are with the people from the Texas area right now.

 

[NorthSky]

• http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...iewed-speakers-ever-made-42.html#post54706786

I'm very happy that Floyd Toole has the good taste for classical multichannel music from the best music record labels...Channel Classics, etc.
And Auro-3D music; Chuck is a fan too, and many other audiophiles of high multichannel music caliber.
From Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Auro-3D, Auro-3D is preferred by the music experts for the multichannel music only recordings.

The other two audio formats are for movies...with fun gimmicks above your head...to help supporting the 4K UHD sales' format.
And it's an exclusive; meaning that movie studios like Fox, Sony, Disney, Warner Bros, Lionsgate, ...aren't providing Dolby Atmos with the regular 1080p Blu-ray versions and the 3D BR versions. This is bad practice, this is preferential business plan, this is a disservice to all movie lovers ... 1080p 2D and 3D across the universe.
2017 will go down in the history book as one of the most aggressive and detrimental in the entertainment world, OLED or not, the hottest/warmest year (in Celsius °).

And he is right too; some stereo pop/rock music is amazing up-mixed in multichannel...the best Yes albums from Steve Wilson, for example.
Also, not only on multichannel DVD-Audio and SACD but also from Blu-ray Audio multichannel music recordings only...Pure Audio.

The best sound recordings are immersive, even in stereo...mono. And in multichannel they can envelop you like nothing else in stereo ever did in your lifetime.
To miss the evolution in sound reproduction is to walk in the desert of Sahara without a water bottle. Would you do that? Then expand your horizons beyond the walls of conventions.

This is the best thread in a long time; that one from AVS with Dr. Floyd Toole.

 

[amirm]

BTW, if folks want to have a deeper dive of SFM (soundfield management) which optimizes the response of multiple subwoofers for best response, I have written an article with tons of measurements and results: http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/computer-optimization-of-room-acoustics.12/

It is incredibly useful technology that is uniquely available in Harman processors. Other room eq systems treat all subs as one which makes them incapable of such optimization.

Hand tuning of multiple subs using this method is darn near impossible given the huge number of iterations involved. For multi-channel becomes insane. Explanation is in the article.

 

[DonH56]

Andyc56's multisub optimizer is another approach, and works with REW and miniDSP units.

 

[jhaider]

But the major bottleneck is the cheap electronics. This is coming from someone who owns both. Me personally haven't heard either.

This comment baffles me. Have you priced the electronics specified for the JBL M2?

The recommended electronics for this speaker, as I understand, are the following:
Integrated DSP and amplification:
2x Crown I-Tech 5000HD: $9,998 at Sweetwater; OR
1x Crown I-Tech 4x3500HD: $11,115 at Adorama; OR
1x Crown DCI4|1250n: $5600 at Adorama

Separates:
1x BSS BLU-160 or JBL Synthesis equivalent: $3800 chassis + $750 minimum in I/O cards for the BSS (Adorama), probably more for Synthesis
4-channel amp of choice (budget to unlimited)

In what world are those "cheap" electronics?

 

[Mivera]

This comment baffles me. Have you priced the electronics specified for the JBL M2?

The recommended electronics for this speaker, as I understand, are the following:
Integrated DSP and amplification:
2x Crown I-Tech 5000HD: $9,998 at Sweetwater; OR
1x Crown I-Tech 4x3500HD: $11,115 at Adorama; OR
1x Crown DCI4|1250n: $5600 at Adorama

Separates:
1x BSS BLU-160 or JBL Synthesis equivalent: $3800 chassis + $750 minimum in I/O cards for the BSS (Adorama), probably more for Synthesis
4-channel amp of choice (budget to unlimited)

In what world are those "cheap" electronics?

So is cost the only factor in which electronics should be judged? Specs are awful compared to a $800 Hypex Ncore based Nord. You can do DSP with something from Minidsp that measures just as good for $200-300.

 

[Mivera]

Those amp specs are pathetic!

http://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/i-tech-5000hd

Here's what real amp specs look like:

https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/ncore/nc500/Documentation/NC500_OEM_02xx.pdf

 

[jhaider]

So is cost the only factor in which electronics should be judged?

"Cheap" means "low-priced." You chose to focus on the dimension of cost by using the adjective "cheap."

I use a BSS processor for active DIY speakers, and a Crown DCI4|1250n to EQ and power 4 subwoofers. The BSS processors are much more flexible than other options, especially when you factor in the ability to add inputs and outputs at will with BLU-BIB and BLU-BOB boxes, respectively. The DCI4|1250n is a nice amp. Perhaps the DCI4|1250n is a little expensive compared to basically similar product from QSC, but it's nice to be able to use the same software for all DSP.

 

[Mivera]

"Cheap" means "low-priced." You chose to focus on the dimension of cost by using the adjective "cheap."

I use a BSS processor for active DIY speakers, and a Crown DCI4|1250n to EQ and power 4 subwoofers. The BSS processors are much more flexible than other options, especially when you factor in the ability to add inputs and outputs at will with BLU-BIB and BLU-BOB boxes, respectively. The DCI4|1250n is a nice amp. Perhaps the DCI4|1250n is a little expensive compared to basically similar product from QSC, but it's nice to be able to use the same software for all DSP.

When I was referring to the low price I was talking about the mass produced Chinese parts inside the unit. Not what Harman chose to price it at. And the measured results certainly reflect this as well.

 

[amirm]

When I was referring to the low price I was talking about the mass produced Chinese parts inside the unit. Not what Harman chose to price it at.

What the heck are you talking about? The amp in question puts out 2,400 watts of power. That is 3.5 times the ncore module you put forward. It has high voltage rails that swing this high:

And chinese? What chinese? Drive-core was co-designed with Texas Instruments. The original motivation was to reduce the weight of amplifiers that go in high-end cars like BMW and Lexus.

Here is a picture of one they sell independently:

That looks like cheap chinese to you???

And this is the ncore:

Here are the other versions of drivecore in Crown amps:

These things are made to be beat up, abused and still put out power reliably day after day.

As noted, the DSP in them and the GUI software to program it make it a complete solution.

No it is not sold as boutique audiophile gear. Crown sells more of these amps in a day than the entire high-end sells amplifiers in a year.

You want to pair the M2 with other amps, you can. You need outboard DSP however.

 

[Mivera]

What the heck are you talking about? The amp in question puts out 2,400 watts of power. That is 3.5 times the ncore module you put forward. It has high voltage rails that swing this high:View attachment 8459

And chinese? What chinese? Drive-core was co-designed with Texas Instruments. The original motivation was to reduce the weight of amplifiers that go in high-end cars like BMW and Lexus.

Here is a picture of one they sell independently:

View attachment 8460

That looks like cheap chinese to you???

And this is the ncore:
View attachment 8461


Here are the other versions of drivecore in Crown amps:

View attachment 8462

These things are made to be beat up, abused and still put out power reliably day after day.

As noted, the DSP in them and the GUI software to program it make it a complete solution.

Not it is not sold as boutique audiophile gear. Crown sells more of these amps in a day than the entire high-end sells amplifiers in a year.

You want to pair the M2 with other amps, you can. You need outboard DSP however.

So power output is everything? We need 2400w to drive things to realistic listening levels?

Yes TI designed the class D chip, but everything is mass produced in China.

The measured specs are pathetic compared to the Ncore.

Or should I say the very few they even share. Must be trying to hide something. Look at all the details Hypex shares!

Now sales figures are an indicator of quality? What Alex??

 

[amirm]

So power output is everything? We need 2400w to drive things to realistic listening levels?

Power costs money and you were complaining about the cost.

Yes TI designed the class D chip, but everything is mass produced in Chin

It is not class D. And TI did not design it. It was a joint design as Crown owns the patent on it.

Learn a bit about the topics for heaven's sake before jumping in.

As to manufacturing, the iPhone is made in China. You think that means it is crap?

 

[Mivera]

Power costs money and you were complaining about the cost.


It is not class D. And TI did not design it. It was a joint design as Crown owns the patent on it.

Learn a bit about the topics for heaven's sake before jumping in.

As to manufacturing, the iPhone is made in China. You think that means it is crap?

Hypex makes a 2500w module that runs rings around the crown for a couple bucks more than the NC-500.

https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/ucd/ucd2k_oem/Documentation/UcD2kOEM_R8.pdf

Now Crown isn't class D? Wow and you sell these things?

Chinese gear may be fine at a price point. But certainly not this price point.

 

[pinkupanda]

Yes TI designed the class D chip, but everything is mass produced in China.

So what exactly is the problem ? Just because it produced in China means its bad ? Even iphone ? Designed in California, produced in China. I have seen several post from you stating "mass produced crap from China". You basically have no idea what quality products can be produced in China if done right.

 

[amirm]

Now sales figures are an indicator of quality?

When they are used like this, yes: (my cellphone picture while at Lucas Oil Stadium)

To power speakers like this:

As such, they must work or you will get fired for installing them.

 

[Mivera]

So what exactly is the problem ? Just because it produced in China means its bad ? Even iphone ? Designed in California, produced in China. I have seen several post from you stating "mass produced crap from China". You basically have no idea what quality products can be produced in China if done right.

Personally I'd rather have something made in Europe or North America. Japan as well. Especially at that price point.

Anyways no matter where they make them the measured specs are a joke compared to the much cheaper European made Hypex. What little they share anyways.

 

[Mivera]

When they are used like this, yes: (my cellphone picture while at Lucas Oil Stadium)

View attachment 8464


To power speakers like this:

As such, they must work or you will get fired for installing them.

Yes they are used because Harman is a $5 Billion company. They have a sales force unmatched in the industry.

I judge things by measurements myself, not sales volume.

 

[amirm]

Now Crown isn't class D?

No. They are switching amplifiers but not class D. They are called class I.

 

[jtwrace]

@Mivera you're really getting old now. I have a pair of NC500's in my closet that are unused. I'm very familiar withe Hypex and the NC400's as well. The bottom line is that Hypex doesn't have anything to compete with the Crown DCi that I use to power my JBL M2's since the DSP is all built in and the files are available.

Here are the amp tours I've done previously with the listening impressions from them:

Stage 1

Stage 2

Listening Impressions

 

[amirm]

So what exactly is the problem ? Just because it produced in China means its bad ? Even iphone ? Designed in California, produced in China. I have seen several post from you stating "mass produced crap from China". You basically have no idea what quality products can be produced in China if done right.

He is making a sales pitch for himself that building kits in his garage makes them better than professionally manufactured in China products.