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Shitt DAC Lovers/Haters?Can both be right?

amirm

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#41
Well even though I'm all for subjective listening, in this case I was talking about objective listening tests (the ones that Amir performs in his reviews).
All listening tests are subjective. The difference between good and bad is whether they are controlled or not. As long as a human is used in evaluation, the test is subjective.

Only measurements are objective since no human is involved in the evaluation.

This is a fine point that is missed by people on both sides of the fence by the way. :)
 

garbulky

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#42
All listening tests are subjective. The difference between good and bad is whether they are controlled or not. As long as a human is used in evaluation, the test is subjective.

Only measurements are objective since no human is involved in the evaluation.

This is a fine point that is missed by people on both sides of the fence by the way. :)
I guess that's what I meant by that - controlled listening test.
 

CDMC

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#43
You can't be serious. They could have avoided 99% of the fanfare created by my reviews by being honest about what they do. They have done everything under the sun to avoid the plain truth of what we have discovered here from grounding issues to actual performance of their products. I had to test no less than three versions of the Schiit Yggdrasil in order to counter their constant denials of the design issues in them. When the owner of the last one sent in his to be verified, they accidentally upgraded its firmware and then measured it! And performed who knows what other upgrades to them.

They proceeded to ban me from all of their threads on Head-fi just as well.

The image they want to portray is what you say. Problem is, no one had tried to test that theory until I came about. The result was some of the most unprofessional conduct I have seen in the industry.

To this day, they have refused to contact me to help resolve conflicts between my findings and that of theirs. An honest company would have immediately contacted me, sent me other samples for testing, verify performance of what I have tested without modification, etc.

There is always an opportunity to make money from a business. What you can't do is regain a good reputation.

But yes, they have done a masterful job of appearing honest with all the backstories, folksy company name, participation in forums (while enjoying full protection of the forum owner by sponsorship), etc. So I am not surprised of your reaction to it but the reality is just not there when it comes to product performance.

Even today, you can't find measurements for all of their products even though they finally have proper measurement gear.
I don't spend much time on Head-fi (more of a AVSforums, Audioasylum, and Audiogon guy), but that is not right. I have seen some references on SBAF that were less than kind to you but didn't know it ran that deep. Unfortunately, it seems that people are becoming less and less tolerant of anything that doesn't agree with their view. I like to always consider the alternatives as most great advances we have had in society did not come from the most popular view.
 
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amirm

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#45
I don't spend much time on Head-fi (more of a AVSforums, Audioasylum, and Audiogon guy), but that is not right. I have seen some references on SBAF that were less than kind to you but didn't know it ran that deep. Unfortunately, it seems that people are becoming less and less tolerant of anything that doesn't agree with their view. I like to always consider the alternatives as most great advances we have had in society did not come from the most popular view.
To be clear, this is different than typical forum banter. On Head-fi. Mike and Jason have moderator powers in their threads. I have never heard of this on any other forum where a sponsor has admin privileges. They both used their powers to ban me from their threads even though I was most respectful. And careful!

Put aside social media norms for a moment. In industry, you don't want to make enemies of people who review your product. You want to always be friendly, helpful, etc. To go and ban me as if they are so powerful as to it not mattering, was a critical business mistake. I have been in their shoes and would never act this way.

They act like they are invincible when it comes to social media. I hope they have learned that this is not so. What cometh easy that way, goes out the window just as easily. :)
 
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#46
You like the sound of your own voice dont you
 

Blumlein 88

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#47
You like the sound of your own voice dont you
Are you kidding? Everyone (I thought) was shocked at how they sound when they first hear their voice recorded. They almost can't recognize themselves and yet to everyone who knows them it sounds exactly like them.

Of course I don't think that is actually what your post was referring to anyway........;)
 
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#49

Thomas savage

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#51
Oh, goody.

I Have 50 years on you, sonny(you did post that you are 21 y.o.)

Something for you to consider: Pay Your Dues.
Ah the good old days when we could chuck dissenting young pups in the water container on site ..


Or beat them with the well used toilet brush ha ha
 

Wombat

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#52
Ah the good old days when we could chuck dissenting young pups in the water container on site ..


Or beat them with the well used toilet brush ha ha
Is that a confession?

67429530_2593840107316637_4311792186136985600_n.jpg



:facepalm:
 

JJB70

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#53
I don't think Schiit has moved on since the Nwavguy debacle all those years ago when he raised concerns about the Asgard amplifier and they reacted by trying to shoot the messenger. I think their response to the earthing issues identified by Amir was shocking (pun not intended), equipment may perform well or perform badly but it should always be safe to use. Some of their online responses to criticism have been deeply unpleasant, simultaneously insulting critics and those with debilitating medical conditions by using words as insults.

I do actually think that their products are improving and that some are now pretty good. I do also recognise that they have avoided the worst excesses of boutique audio gear pricing. However I think the company principals are nasty pieces of work and very manipulative. Regardless of how their product improves (new Schiit website header - we used to be shit but we're very average now!) I won't be buying their wares.
 

solderdude

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#54
AFAIK the current high and low power Schiit amps still do not have something as simple as DC protection.
This would be extremely easy and cheap to implement. The relay is already present.

They do have some decent and cheap products and like that.

I find the name of their retail outlet hilarious.
 

GrimSurfer

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#55
Put aside social media norms for a moment. In industry, you don't want to make enemies of people who review your product. You want to always be friendly, helpful, etc. To go and ban me as if they are so powerful as to it not mattering, was a critical business mistake. I have been in their shoes and would never act this way.

They act like they are invincible when it comes to social media. I hope they have learned that this is not so. What cometh easy that way, goes out the window just as easily. :)
I doubt they have learned anything, @amirm. It's more likely that:

(1) they have derived some pleasure from wielding their power; and

(2) they have protected their personal interests with a corporate entity whose vision is fixed on the next sales quarter.

Corporate exploitation of social media is a pernicious thing because it exists on so many levels. You can own the site, you can employ its staff, you can bribe the greedy, you can pander to zealots, you can co opt the weak, you can cultivate personal rapport, or you can ban the critics.

Your experience in HeadFi is invaluable. It helps you decide whether to preside over a fair, free, and tidy little polity or abandon your ideals to become a just another player (no matter how large) in the grander audio social media scheme.
 

GrimSurfer

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#56
I don't think Schiit has moved on since the Nwavguy debacle all those years ago when he raised concerns about the Asgard amplifier and they reacted by trying to shoot the messenger. I think their response to the earthing issues identified by Amir was shocking (pun not intended), equipment may perform well or perform badly but it should always be safe to use. Some of their online responses to criticism have been deeply unpleasant, simultaneously insulting critics and those with debilitating medical conditions by using words as insults.

I do actually think that their products are improving and that some are now pretty good. I do also recognise that they have avoided the worst excesses of boutique audio gear pricing. However I think the company principals are nasty pieces of work and very manipulative. Regardless of how their product improves (new Schiit website header - we used to be shit but we're very average now!) I won't be buying their wares.
From Shiit's perspective, having a professional and knowledgeable source say publicly that one of their products was a shock hazard would have been terrifying. It would have removed ignorance (however real or feigned) as part of a legal defence in a product liability suit, thereby increasing the risk of financial ruin. This is important to keep in mind.

Your point about product improvement, however, is a very good one. Just because we perceive that Shiit was in adamant denial on one issue, doesn't mean that they didn't learn an important lesson at the engineering/manufacturing level after managing the legal/liability aspects of the grounding crisis.

The high ground will be occupied by those keeping an open mind, testing Shiit products as they are released, and comparing corporate claims against measured performance. It won't be held by those who feel personally slighted by actions of the past and present. 'Cause trust me, any action Shiit took to silence criticism on the grounding issue wasn't personal. It was pure business.

To that end, it would be wise for Audioscience review to keep a reasonable lid on Shiit bashing. Calling them out on a performance defect is abundantly fair, but presiding over a public flogging (as happens in social media) is the surest way of ensuring things become (or remain) personal.
 

BDWoody

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#57
From Shiit's perspective, having a professional and knowledgeable source say publicly that one of their products was a shock hazard would have been terrifying. It would have removed ignorance (however real or feigned) as part of a legal defence in a product liability suit, thereby increasing the risk of financial ruin. This is important to keep in mind.

Your point about product improvement, however, is a very good one. Just because we perceive that Shiit was in adamant denial on one issue, doesn't mean that they didn't learn an important lesson at the engineering/manufacturing level after managing the legal/liability aspects of the grounding crisis.

The high ground will be occupied by those keeping an open mind, testing Shiit products as they are released, and comparing corporate claims against measured performance. It won't be held by those who feel personally slighted by actions of the past and present. 'Cause trust me, any action Shiit took on the grounding issue wasn't personal. It was all business.

To that end, it would be wise for Audioscience review to keep a reasonable lid on Shiit bashing. Calling them out on a performance defect is abundantly fair, but presiding over a public flogging (as happens in social media) is the surest way of ensuring things become (or remain) personal.
You're full of advice for everybody!

That's got to get exhausting...
 
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#60
I have been schooled. I suppose I should be grateful for the instruction.
You're welcome.
It's a science forum so it's good to stick to scientific principles and not try to stir the pot and create tension.
Better to keep it objective where things are less likely to devolve into chaos and more likely to have a fruitful conversation.
Everyday you can learn a lesson. Sometimes you get a quick refresher. Better to learn than to be closed minded and upset.
Everyday is an opportunity for growth.
 
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