Share your in-room measurements?

[thewas]

What’s the bob Kats target?

How far are you sitting from them? Cause i never seen a speaker with constant directivity experiencing a more aggressive tilt just because the room has more absorption.

See here, Genelec 8260 also gives a similar response in his studio https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ike-to-see-reviewed.10943/page-25#post-359319

Listening distance is 2 meters and non gated FR at the listening response is of course also depending on the room reverberation characteristics, although in that region most important is the direct sound which is still flat, which is the reason why "correcting" there can often harm more than improve.

 

[abdo123]

See here, Genelec 8260 also gives a similar response in his studio https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ike-to-see-reviewed.10943/page-25#post-359319

Listening distance is 2 meters and non gated FR at the listening response is of course also depending on the room reverberation characteristics, although in that region most important is the direct sound which is still flat, which is the reason why "correcting" there can often harm more than improve.See here, Genelec 8260 also gives a similar response in his studio https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-budget-speakers-you-like-to-see-reviewed.10943/page-25#post-359319

Listening distance is 2 meters and non gated FR at the listening response is of course also depending on the room reverberation characteristics, although in that region most important is the direct sound which is still flat, which is the reason why "correcting" there can often harm more than improve.

Oh you’re EQing above 1 KHz, I thought that was the Meta’s natural response.

In my experience the tilt is determined completely by the early reflections response, and not by room accoustics unless you’re really far from the speakers.

 

[thewas]

Oh you’re EQing above 1 KHz, I thought that was the Meta’s natural response.

No, as I wrote above in the original post I don't EQ the Meta above 200 Hz as they are quite flat anechoically.

In my experience the tilt is determined completely by the early reflections response, and not by room accoustics unless you’re really far from the speakers.

According to Harman score it is 12%LW (so direct sound) 44%ER (early reflections) 44%SP (sound power, so depending more on the late reflections) , depending on the distance and reflectivity of the room the percentages change of course. If you fill a room with some thin absorbers you will see the non gated FR LR fall in the higher octaves.

 

[abdo123]

No, as I wrote above in the original post I don't EQ the Meta above 200 Hz as they are quite flat anechoically.


According to Harman score it is 12%LW (so direct sound) 44%ER (early reflections) 44%SP (sound power, so depending more on the late reflections) , depending on the distance and reflectivity of the room the percentages change of course. If you fill a room with some thin absorbers you will see the non gated FR LR fall in the higher octaves.

So you're telling me the metas (a constant directivity speaker) naturally follow the target curve you want with a really sharp tilt in your room?

Sorry that's a little bit far fetched to me.

 

[thewas]

So you're telling me the metas (a constant directivity speaker) naturally follow the target curve you want with a really sharp tilt in your room?

Sorry that's a little bit far fetched to me.

Do you want to imply that I post manipulated curves? Here it is without any EQ:

If you look carefully the LS50 is only constant directivity above 3 kHz. Also look at the Genelec 8260 of Bob Katz it which also behaves similarly, as said the response also depends on the reflectivity of the room in different frequencies:

Below 1 kHz where EQ can be helpful the target curve depends a lot on the room and is also a matter of personal taste/recording. I have used in the past also fully continuously decreasing targets from 20 Hz to 20 kHz of -0.6 or -0.8 dB/oct but this one sounds more neutral to me.

 

[abdo123]

Do you want to imply that I post manipulated curves? Here it is without any EQ:

No i just find it a bit odd as it contradicts my own personal experience, for me it looks like you measured off-axis (microphone or speaker angle) and as a result you have this exaggerated tilt.

your response does not follow the norm in my honest opinion.

 

[thewas]

No i just find it a bit odd as it contradicts my own personal experience, for me it looks like you measured off-axis (microphone or speaker angle) and as a result you have this exaggerated tilt.

your response does not follow the norm in my honest opinion.

I use the same mic and and measurement method also for my LS50 Anniversary desktop setup which also shows very similar results except as said the last octave. I have also measured several others loudspeakers in that position and they all show that behaviour on the last octave. Also it is the target that Bob Katz and the room correction expert @mitchco uses who has written so many articles and this very good book on DRC.

By the way could you show your own LP measurements, would be interesting in this discussion.

 

[changer]

Are the speakers toed-in and if, to what degree?

 

[thewas]

Are the speakers toed-in and if, to what degree?

Around 20° as at approximately 30°-20°=10° off-axis those (and also many other) coaxials are the flattest.

 

[abdo123]

I use the same mic and and measurement method also for my LS50 Anniversary desktop setup which also shows very similar results except as said the last octave. I have also measured several others loudspeakers in that position and they all show that behaviour on the last octave. Also it is the target that Bob Katz and the room correction expert @mitchco uses who has written so many articles and this very good book on DRC.

By the way could you show your own LP measurements, would be interesting in this discussion.

Sure Here is the JBL Stage A130 Early reflections (Erin + anechoic EQ) vs in-room measurements (5 measurements averaged across a two seat couch) because i don't have a Klippel spinorama for the speakers in my 'music' room.

The A130 has terrible tweeter quality control and the resonance doesn't translate well between units so i couldn't just copy paste that particular filter so pay that no mind on the ER plot.

 

[Chromatischism]

Around 20° as at approximately 30°-20°=10° off-axis those (and also many other) coaxials are the flattest.

I find this has an effect on the tilt, so I believe it.

 

[abdo123]

@thewas

Can you please upload the bob Katz target you have? I would like to give that a try too.

 

[thewas]

@thewas

Can you please upload the bob Katz target you have? I would like to give that a try too.

Sure, it is just flat to from 20 to 1000 Hz and then linearly dropping to -6 dB at 20 kHz, so

20.00 0
1000.00 0
20000.00 -6.0

 

[thewas]

I find this has an effect on the tilt, so I believe it.

0 and 10° are almost identical, even 20° which is flatter is just approx. one 1 dB lower:

Plot generated by https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/

 

[Chromatischism]

0 and 10° are almost identical, even 20° which is flatter is just approx. one 1 dB lower:

View attachment 212215
Plot generated by https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/

Is that supposed to be anechoic? I meant the in-room response due to the mic getting less direct and more reflected sound. But it sure looks like that speaker has a more focused sound than most.

 

[Zaireeka]

Here are 2 GRADE reports, before and after setting a minimal amount of acoustic treatment (2 Viscoutic basstraps, 2 Ekustik pannels, 1 diffusor) in my listening room.

Room is 27m², speakers are Genelec 8350A set approx 40 cm from the back wall. LP is at 2.1m from the speakers.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14G3-jHR_OnokQDEXDzWi2I-vhmaYy28F/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O3V6Q41_nei4FaSU_0M2bFTSVer_etGA/view?usp=sharing

 

[muad]

Based on calculated PIR, 10-30 degree variations won't result in that tilt. The meta is very stable +-40 degrees vertically or horizontally. I would expect similar results.

I was of the understanding that a tilt was also a function of listening distance and hf attenuation?

Edit: Napier had some great measurements of room measurement at various listening distances.

 

[abdo123]

Based on calculated PIR, 10-30 degree variations won't result in that tilt. The meta is very stable +-40 degrees vertically or horizontally. I would expect similar results.

View attachment 212235
I was of the understanding that a tilt was also a function of listening distance and hf attenuation?

Yes slight variation is expected (the further you’re away from the speaker the more dominant the sound power trend is).

But the trend i saw in the measurements didn’t follow a constant directivity pattern at all which is why it stood out to me.

 

[muad]

Yes slight variation is expected (the further you’re away from the speaker the more dominant the sound power trend is).

But the trend i saw in the measurements didn’t follow a constant directivity pattern at all which is why it stood out to me.

Oh I see. Thewas's measurement looks very corrected to a target lol

 

[thewas]

Is that supposed to be anechoic? I meant the in-room response due to the mic getting less direct and more reflected sound. But it sure looks like that speaker has a more focused sound than most.

Yes, those are the ASR NFS measurements.