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Setup error? Damaged stylus? Music Hall MMF 5.1 issues? Goldring 1012GX issue? Goldring D12 stylus issue?

nathan

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The cartridge (Goldring 1012GX) or at least the stylus section (D12 also from Goldring) seems like it is sitting lower against the LP than ever before and tracking has gotten worse. EDIT UPDATE TLDR after double checking all the setup factors Music Hall confirms this is a failure of the stylus suspension, and they no longer bundle Goldring but instead have moved to Ortofon for this level of table (IIRC msrp around 1k).

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Tone arm weight / tracking pressure is set up with a very accurate scale (down to hundredths of a gram) and anti-skating is set to match that weight.

I haven't adjusted VTA but it seems to be solidly locked where it always has been.

And if I was to try to adjust it, it almost looks like I would be moving it in a direction that makes things worse?

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Is this something I can correct? Did the stylus get bent? Is it worn out? Damaged? Cartridge issue?

I don't see a way to change platter height but that would be a strange solve too since then VTA would be off even more.

This is a Music Hall MMF 5.1 (which is mostly built from parts from ProJect it seems.). I'm guessing there is a logical easy answer that I am not experienced enough to hit upon.

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I'm not excited by the idea of spending hundred of bucks on a replacement stylus, only to learn I should have spent a couple hundred more on a complete cartridge set....only to learn my existing stylus and cartridge are okay and it was a setup issue on my part! ;)

But if that is the route for trouble shooting, maybe I'll get a cheap cartridge from Amazon for troubleshooting.
 
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mhardy6647

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Your stylus does appear to be riding too low. It is possible that the suspension has collapsed.
Did you actually measure the VTF?
EDIT Yes, you did, sorry!
What is the actual VTF?
Which cartridge is that? Is it a Goldring (it looks like one)?

Skip to the bottom of this post!


It's easy and more reliable than any other scheme.
The (in)famous Shure (EDIT)SFG-2 will do a perfectly good job. It is simple as simple can be - just a platform balance. It is accurate and precise enough for most reasonable turntable/cartridge/stylus combinations.
I don't know if they're still available new, but Shure made and sold zillions of them (roughly ;) for decades for around 20 USD so it shouldn't be hard to find one. If you're in the US, I could mail you mine to use (if you'll send it back when you're finished!).
EDIT: apparently no longer made :( No surprise, given that Shure abandoned the "vinyl" market a few years back.



A small digital scale (I like to call them dope scales ;)) will also work well. You can buy an audiophile-approved versio for $200 or more, or Amazon can sell you the same scale for probably $10 (again, USD).
I have, and use, one of these from time to time. Sort of in-between quality and price.

In theory, you want the scale to measure the VTF at approximately the correct height and VTA, but in practice, something like this works well enough. :)


Yes, if I were you, given your apparent new-ness to the field, I would definitely recommend picking up a cheap "cannon fodder" cartridge to practice with! The famous (also infamous, in some circles) Audio-Technica AT3600L is very inexpensive, sounds decent, tracks OK and is should be appropriate for the mass of your tonearm.
 

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mhardy6647

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Having mucked up my original response by not reading the original question closely enough :facepalm:
I will add to my bottom-line comments in my first reply that the AT3600L (and other, extremely similar) A-T cartridges are sold under various brand names (and several different A-T model number designations). They are "entry-level" cartridges with a conical stylus mounted on a plastic -- umm, I mean carbon-fiber (yeah, that's the ticket!) cantilever. ;)
The one I have, e.g., was sold by the (quasi) pro-sound company Gemini as the GN-15. I think I paid $20 from PartsExpress for it.

These are (should be!) sub $20 cartridges. Besides being cheap, they're sturdy and forgiving. Great for neophytes. They also sound decent when installed and aligned even reasonably close to optimally. Conicals tend to be much more forgiving than elliptical or even more "hyper" stylus profiles of a bit of mis-alignment -- which is a good thing for you, your hardware, and your records!

There also appear to be clones/knock-offs/rip-offs of these as well, so there's a certain amount of caveat emptor, but that's pretty much de rigueur nowadays
:(

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Elusive Disk seems to have 'em in stock for $25-ish.

 
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nathan

nathan

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Thanks for the tip. At the very least, this will give me a basis for testing that is cheap.
 

DVDdoug

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Does the stylus spring back and look normal when lifted?

It sure looks like a classic case of excess tracking force, or the stylus/cartridge is damaged.

Tone arm weight / tracking pressure is set up with a very accurate scale (down to hundredths of a gram)
Do you have some ~1g calibration weights to check it? (Hundredth's of a gram resolution doesn't mean hundredth's of a gram accuracy and it might be out-of-calibration.)

Or does the tonearm have a tracking force indicator? I don't know about this turntable/tonearm, but it's pretty common for the counter-weight to marked... You set it to read zero when the tonearm exactly balances, and then as you adjust it should read correctly.
 
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nathan

nathan

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Does the stylus spring back and look normal when lifted?

It sure looks like a classic case of excess tracking force, or the stylus/cartridge is damaged.

Do you have some ~1g calibration weights to check it? (Hundredth's of a gram resolution doesn't mean hundredth's of a gram accuracy and it might be out-of-calibration.)

Or does the tonearm have a tracking force indicator? I don't know about this turntable/tonearm, but it's pretty common for the counter-weight to marked... You set it to read zero when the tonearm exactly balances, and then as you adjust it should read correctly.
Thanks for the troubleshooting steps. Yes, the tonearm also has those markings and they closely match what my scale says.

However, I just heard from Music Hall and they believe the suspension on the stylus has failed and the stylus must be replaced (or of course I could do the whole cartridge). Looks like I can get a replacement from the UK where Goldring is headquartered.
 

mhardy6647

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How old is the cartridge (or, really, how many hours of use on the stylus)?
Wondering whether the stylus collapse was premature.

The 'value proposition' for replacing stylus vs. replacing the cartridge is pretty much up to you @nathan :)

I have very little experience with Goldring cartridges (past or present) so I don't know if they tend to be more or less picky than average, nor do I know if they have any well-known Achilles' heel (such as failure-prone suspensions).

A medium compliance cartridge will be a good match for that medium mass arm, FWIW.

I will offer the unsolicited opinion ;) that I like Grado moving iron cartridges, and have since I first encountered them ca. 1976. They do have some idiosyncracies (their lack of shielding can cause hum problems on some tts, and they can sometimes exhibit some oscillation/instability issues referred to as the Grado dance) but dollar for dollar they offer great sound quality without being overly picky about their care & feeding.
 

Bob from Florida

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Thanks for the troubleshooting steps. Yes, the tonearm also has those markings and they closely match what my scale says.

However, I just heard from Music Hall and they believe the suspension on the stylus has failed and the stylus must be replaced (or of course I could do the whole cartridge). Looks like I can get a replacement from the UK where Goldring is headquartered.
If you liked the tonal balance of the Goldring, get the replacement stylus. Assuming the cartridge is set up correctly, it will save you some setup time and possibly money.
 
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nathan

nathan

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How old is the cartridge (or, really, how many hours of use on the stylus)?
Wondering whether the stylus collapse was premature.

The 'value proposition' for replacing stylus vs. replacing the cartridge is pretty much up to you @nathan :)

I have very little experience with Goldring cartridges (past or present) so I don't know if they tend to be more or less picky than average, nor do I know if they have any well-known Achilles' heel (such as failure-prone suspensions).

A medium compliance cartridge will be a good match for that medium mass arm, FWIW.

I will offer the unsolicited opinion ;) that I like Grado moving iron cartridges, and have since I first encountered them ca. 1976. They do have some idiosyncracies (their lack of shielding can cause hum problems on some tts, and they can sometimes exhibit some oscillation/instability issues referred to as the Grado dance) but dollar for dollar they offer great sound quality without being overly picky about their care & feeding.
I’m gonna estimate it was a couple hundred hours of playback on this cartridge (and this original stylus).

Thanks for the ideas about alternates.

I put in an order for that basic Audio Technica more just to have something to test with and something to listen with while I shopped for a better solution. So I’ll give that a drive while I am sorting out the rest. I hope it doesn’t need any VTA adjustment since I can’t find that tool in my stash and while it’s just a hex nut pair to loosen the VTA it is a strange angle that a normal hex wrench can’t fit into.
 
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nathan

nathan

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If you liked the tonal balance of the Goldring, get the replacement stylus. Assuming the cartridge is set up correctly, it will save you some setup time and possibly money.

Yes assuming the diagnosis is correct regarding the issue I suspect this is the path of least resistance. Thanks.

Fwiw I haven’t compared enough cartridges/styluses to know whether I like this more than the alternatives…..so maybe this is a chance to compare test or learn.
 

Bob from Florida

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Yes assuming the diagnosis is correct regarding the issue I suspect this is the path of least resistance. Thanks.

Fwiw I haven’t compared enough cartridges/styluses to know whether I like this more than the alternatives…..so maybe this is a chance to compare test or learn.
If your arm was level previously and the tracking force has not increased significantly, then the suspension is pretty much it. Your photo shows a pretty steep down angle and with the cartridge body super low.... My bet is the suspension.
 
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nathan

nathan

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Cool. I'll hit up some dealers and see what pricing and availability is like.
 

Haflermichi

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I have nearly the exact same setup accept my deck is a 5.0.
The Goldring 1012GX cartridge always ran low. At first I felt it was "holy shit" low but everything was set up correctly.
But clearly, that cartridge has some physical clearance aspects that make such an appearance likely and it always bothered me.
I knew right away the body would bottom out if I played vinyl that was too warped.
I've gone through two stylus now. That cartridge design is just a low rider.
However, once the cantilever suspension wears it will definitely exacerbate the problem.
If you can't see daylight between the cart body and the vinyl, you've verified your setup and your having tracking problemsI'd say it's time to move on.
 
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nathan

nathan

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I have nearly the exact same setup accept my deck is a 5.0.
The Goldring 1012GX cartridge always ran low. At first I felt it was "holy shit" low but everything was set up correctly.
But clearly, that cartridge has some physical clearance aspects that make such an appearance likely and it always bothered me.
I knew right away the body would bottom out if I played vinyl that was too warped.
I've gone through two stylus now. That cartridge design is just a low rider.
However, once the cantilever suspension wears it will definitely exacerbate the problem.
If you can't see daylight between the cart body and the vinyl, you've verified your setup and your having tracking problemsI'd say it's time to move on.
Have you kept with the Goldring or have you moved on to another cartridge. I guess that is my decision point to make: Replace the stylus or move on. If this is likely to happen again due to the design of this cartridge, then I should probably cut my losses and start fresh with something else.
 

Haflermichi

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I still have the Goldring. It's a decent cartridge. But since it seems to have this tendency (albeit a small sample size of you and I) I was thinking of
moving on. There are plenty of choices although I haven't taken that step yet.
Let me know if you do and what you choose!
 
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nathan

nathan

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I may be a fool or a glutton for punishment but I'm considering simply getting the d42 stylus (which is a two step upgrade in their lineup) since it is compatible with the cartridge already installed, and "just" 30% more than the stylus I have.....for the simple reason that since I need something new, I might as well not get exactly what I had before, and broaden my horizons.
 

Bob from Florida

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I may be a fool or a glutton for punishment but I'm considering simply getting the d42 stylus (which is a two step upgrade in their lineup) since it is compatible with the cartridge already installed, and "just" 30% more than the stylus I have.....for the simple reason that since I need something new, I might as well not get exactly what I had before, and broaden my horizons.
The Sumiko Moonstone may be a good alternative. The top of the line Amethyst gets you nude line contact but at $600 is double the Moonstone. Pre-threaded inserts are way more convenient than nuts when mounting the cartridge.
 
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nathan

nathan

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Thanks for the idea.

Hall recommended Ortofon 2M blue to me.

That's a different class of cartridge/stylus but I'm realizing that since my vinyl is mostly older pressings, not all of which are pristine, that something more forgiving of setup/challenging LPs may be the most practical.

I guess I should also target something that plays nicely with my existing Pro-Ject Audio Phono Box DC - MM/MC since I don't want to swap that out.
 
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