• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
Every DAC has an analog part. It might sound differently.

There is no reason why a slow filter + buffer, that works well above the audible range, should have 'a sound'.
When it does it isn't designed properly or modifies the signal on purpose. This will clearly show in measurements.
 

magicscreen

Senior Member
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
300
Likes
176
There is no reason why a slow filter + buffer, that works well above the audible range, should have 'a sound'.
When it does it isn't designed properly or modifies the signal on purpose. This will clearly show in measurements.
So this analog part cannot alter the sound?
index.php
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
So this analog part cannot alter the sound?

What electronic part do you mean ?
The OPA 2134 (which is an excellent opamp)
The used resistors and capacitors also seem to be O.K.
Only the ceramic cap I cannot say, this would depend on what it does (low capacitance most likely and when NP0/C0G quality is excellent)
I assume the filter action is above 60kHz.
 

Julf

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
3,008
Likes
3,999
Location
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Amir did test a Dell desktop and the mainboard DAC didn't measure well, an inbuild DAC in a monitor might just have a noisy powersupply.

I am sure there were measurable differences. There might well be audible differences. It just takes more than a subjective, unverified, sighted perception to convince me.
 

tuga

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2020
Messages
3,984
Likes
4,281
Location
Oxford, England
I can't think of anything more tedious than AB comparisons. I nearly died of boredom trying to finish the Philips Golden Ear Challenge...
Besides AB comparisons are useless but to determine the crudest differences.
A waste of time in my opinion.
Might as well believe that all DACs sound the same and pick any one of those in the top tier of the SINAD table that you can afford. Life is so easy.
 

Milesian

Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2019
Messages
77
Likes
81
Location
Canada
I can't think of anything more tedious than AB comparisons. I nearly died of boredom trying to finish the Philips Golden Ear Challenge...
Besides AB comparisons are useless but to determine the crudest differences.
A waste of time in my opinion.
Might as well believe that all DACs sound the same and pick any one of those in the top tier of the SINAD table that you can afford. Life is so easy.

A/B comparisons only make sense over a period of time. spend a day or two on A, a day or two on B, then go back to A. To think you can detect differences instantaneously is silly.
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,051
Likes
12,150
Location
London
I can't think of anything more tedious than AB comparisons. I nearly died of boredom trying to finish the Philips Golden Ear Challenge...
Besides AB comparisons are useless but to determine the crudest differences.
A waste of time in my opinion.
Might as well believe that all DACs sound the same and pick any one of those in the top tier of the SINAD table that you can afford. Life is so easy.


Keith
 

raistlin65

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
2,279
Likes
3,421
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
A/B comparisons only make sense over a period of time. spend a day or two on A, a day or two on B, then go back to A. To think you can detect differences instantaneously is silly.

If it takes a day or two to figure out the differences when it comes to a DAC or amp, then for me, there is effectively no difference in real-world usage when it comes to enjoying audio. Audio memory is too unreliable for that difference to matter.
 

Wes

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
3,843
Likes
3,788
There’s a difference between “cannot” and “highly unlikely to if engineered.”

also a difference between "stuck on there by a competent digital EE" and "sweated over by an analog EE expert"

but, we'd have to make a suite of measurements or a good listening test

BTW, I am now accepting shipments of any DAC costing over $10,000 and will conduct a lengthy series of careful listening tests on them for no charge...
 

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,273
Likes
9,798
Location
NYC
A/B comparisons only make sense over a period of time. spend a day or two on A, a day or two on B, then go back to A. To think you can detect differences instantaneously is silly.
A/B comparisons only make sense instantaneously. To think you can detect differences over a period of time, spend a day or two on A, a day or two on B, then going back to A is unreasonable.
Audio memory is too unreliable for that difference to matter.
Yup.
 
D

Deleted member 12179

Guest
I also noticed, in A/B test, your ears and concentration can get very tired very fast. You need a break, or a few, or stop until tomorrow. Like testing perfums, you can test a couple or three and that's it for the day. Speakers may do need those long tests, some cause more fatigue over time. didn't noticed that when I bought the yamahas, I notice it now at my place, you get tired of them easily and fast, gotta eq them a bit to make it less of a problem. I could not notice what dac is better unless fast comparisons on the exact same sounds.
 

majingotan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
1,513
Likes
1,783
Location
Laguna, Philippines
Speakers may do need those long tests, some cause more fatigue over time. didn't noticed that when I bought the yamahas, I notice it now at my place, you get tired of them easily and fast, gotta eq them a bit to make it less of a problem.

I also have the HS7s and to me it isn’t really suitable for anything other than near field listening at 2 feet away from tweeters and on axis in triangular listening setup. To my subjective preferences at this listening position, it’s by far the least fatiguing (literally ZERO fatigue whatsoever) and most lifelike in timbre reproduction I’ve ever heard out of any near field bookshelf speakers. No headphones or IEMs even come close to its lifelike tonality IMHO. What’s interesting is that I never needed to use any EQ with it other than setting room mode and HF trim switches on the back of the unit
 

Julf

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
3,008
Likes
3,999
Location
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Is it just me, or are there more and more subjective perceptions here on ASR? :(
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,459
Location
Australia
I also noticed, in A/B test, your ears and concentration can get very tired very fast. You need a break, or a few, or stop until tomorrow. Like testing perfums, you can test a couple or three and that's it for the day. Speakers may do need those long tests, some cause more fatigue over time. didn't noticed that when I bought the yamahas, I notice it now at my place, you get tired of them easily and fast, gotta eq them a bit to make it less of a problem. I could not notice what dac is better unless fast comparisons on the exact same sounds.

Deep concentration over time without respite is fatiguing, period. Audio is not special in this regard. Unless you know what to focus on and can reliably fast-take detail, fast switching of sources can be meaningless.

AB/ABX is not generally something for amateurs.

I find the recommendation for general enthusiasts to perform blind-testing at home or at a club to be rather vacuous.

The process requires knowledge, process understanding, discipline, audio understanding and hearing acuity. Plus the ability to evaluate the results.
Nerd.png
 
Last edited:

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,386
Likes
24,752
Location
Alfred, NY
Deep concentration over time without respite is fatiguing, period. Audio is not special in this regard. Unless you know what to focus on and can reliably fast-take detail, fast switching of sources can be meaningless.

AB/ABX is not generally something for amateurs.

I find the recommendation for general enthusiasts to perform blind-testing at home or at a club to be rather vacuous.

The process requires knowledge, process understanding, discipline, audio understanding and hearing acuity. Plus the ability to evaluate the results. View attachment 50690

It's not generally that difficult for ordinary audio comparisons other than speakers- the trickiest aspect is proper level-matching. One can also use other formats than ABX for double-blind testing where appropriate (e.g., sorting tests, triangle, PFC, switchboxes...). My article in Linear Audio a few years ago gives some specific examples.
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,949
Likes
22,628
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
Top Bottom