• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

TomB19

Active Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2019
Messages
137
Likes
102
I don't know what "exception bias" is* (nor how to weaponize it), but I assure you that Expectation Bias, (also known as Experimenter's Bias) is for real, and it is quite similar (even identical) to rejecting contradictory information.

Well played. You exploited my auto-corrected error. I'm going to leave it, in the interest of good sportsmanship. :)

I see that you chose to ignore my embrace of expectation bias and switch to mocking while attempting to drive home your idea, as though you were correcting me. Your post is a display of hubris. While I respect your position, I'm not in need of an alpha leader so I don't chose to follow your mentorship.

I embrace the idea of expectation bias but I dismiss the idea that I cannot use an A/B switch to directly compare two devices with reasonable objectivity. While imperfect, particularly for extreme close cases, it is among the best tools I have available.

Consider how ignorant your position is. If I set up a pair of DACs connected to a computer on one side and an A/B switch on the other, then A/B compare the DACs using a variety of source material, you are explaining to me the comparison is not valid.

I'm going to go ahead and use the DAC I prefer, along with any other equipment I deem to be more enjoyable. You are simply fabricating an argument to dismiss the opinions of others and support your own.
 

Julf

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
3,006
Likes
3,998
Location
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Consider how ignorant your position is. If I set up a pair of DACs connected to a computer on one side and an A/B switch on the other, then A/B compare the DACs using a variety of source material, you are explaining to me the comparison is not valid.

Indeed. You might be hearing a huge difference while there might not be any actual physical difference. To not understand that is rather ignorant.
 
D

Deleted member 12179

Guest
Unfortunately you have made a mistake buying the Khadas Tone Board and the Jds labs Atom. It was a waste of money.
The iphone dac+amp sounds exactly the same. You should try a properly volume matched double blind test.
On the bright side, at least you have not bought for example a THX AAA 789 and Topping D90. You cannot hear difference using them as well in properly volume matched double blind test.
The iphone is 700$ to over 1000$. Never owned an iphone.
 

raistlin65

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
2,279
Likes
3,421
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
That is of course your right.



It is my experience that when someone says "ALWAYS", they are always wrong. ALWAYS.

Well unless someone is hard of hearing. lol

It is common sense really. If two DACs sound the same when level matched, when not well-level matched, the audio signal of one has changed and they can no longer sound the same anymore.
 
D

Deleted member 12179

Guest
The level matching is so obvious that talking about it is a waste if time.

I compared the khadas against the dell monitor dac i used before, through active speakers. In a simple test, it was clear one was more detailed than the other. You had to pay atention, and play the exact same part of a track, but once you learn to hear the differences, it was clearly there.
 

Julf

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
3,006
Likes
3,998
Location
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
I compared the khadas against the dell monitor dac i used before, through active speakers. In a simple test, it was clear one was more detailed than the other. You had to pay atention, and play the exact same part of a track, but once you learn to hear the differences, it was clearly there.

If you say so...
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,627
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
The level matching is so obvious that talking about it is a waste if time.

I compared the khadas against the dell monitor dac i used before, through active speakers. In a simple test, it was clear one was more detailed than the other. You had to pay atention, and play the exact same part of a track, but once you learn to hear the differences, it was clearly there.

Uh huh...
 

ahofer

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
4,952
Likes
8,698
Location
New York City
Well played. You exploited my auto-corrected error. I'm going to leave it, in the interest of good sportsmanship. :)

I see that you chose to ignore my embrace of expectation bias and switch to mocking while attempting to drive home your idea, as though you were correcting me. Your post is a display of hubris. While I respect your position, I'm not in need of an alpha leader so I don't chose to follow your mentorship.

I embrace the idea of expectation bias but I dismiss the idea that I cannot use an A/B switch to directly compare two devices with reasonable objectivity. While imperfect, particularly for extreme close cases, it is among the best tools I have available.

Consider how ignorant your position is. If I set up a pair of DACs connected to a computer on one side and an A/B switch on the other, then A/B compare the DACs using a variety of source material, you are explaining to me the comparison is not valid.

I'm going to go ahead and use the DAC I prefer, along with any other equipment I deem to be more enjoyable. You are simply fabricating an argument to dismiss the opinions of others and support your own.

uh huh. You have put a ton of words in my mouth. I merely showed (with evidence) that expectation bias has been found to have a significant effect, and thus is not “overplayed” . I didn’t opine on your AB testing or ask you to like or dislike anything. Stop projecting.
 

TomB19

Active Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2019
Messages
137
Likes
102
uh huh. You have put a ton of words in my mouth. I merely showed (with evidence) that expectation bias has been found to have a significant effect, and thus is not “overplayed”

Incorrect. Demonstrating the phenomenon to be real (by the way... after I indicated the same) does not demonstrate the effect is considered with a weight reasonable to the power of the effect. Your assertion does not stand.

If expectation bias was so significant, there would be no objective foundation to compare audio equipment in a store, test drive multiple cars, or even to try multiple restaurants.

Expectation bias is a minor factor with direct comparison the major factor. Also, expectation bias does seem to be more significant with some people so that's a bit of a wild card.

Look, I know people swoon over equipment with the most impressive display and/or the highest price. That effect is real and not productive to having the best sound. Few people have heard the TOTL Wilson Audio speakers or other ridiculously priced esoteric equipment but it's clear from attending audio shows this gear comes with an objectivity distortion field that causes people to swoon despite other, less expensive and far better set up, gear in other rooms sounding similar or better for a tiny fraction of the price. I suspect we share the same point of view, in this regard but...

I worked at an audio store in the 1980s. My brother worked for Sony during that time and into the 90s. Every chance there has been to A/B equipment I've jumped at it. It has been extremely enlightening and a lot of fun. I believe my non-blind A/B experience mostly determined the correct result. I'm sure a few of my determinations were not correct due to environmental factors, expectation bias, sample variation, etc. Still, it's clear to me this effort yielded a great foundation of knowledge that was frequently contrary to popular thinking in industry publications of the day.

Many other (but not all) in this hobby are on the same journey as I have been. They may be in a different segment of the arc and they will undoubtedly arrive at a different destination but that is the point. They are trying, comparing, reading, learning,... that is audio. Of course blind listening tests are preferable since they produce the correct result with better regularity to transparent comparisons but the direct comparisons are still valid.

On this site, I see a lot of people take the position that all DACs sound the same. They don't. It is clear many DACs sound so close as to make sound preference between them irrelevant but the outliers are sonically distinguishable from the lead pack, even on mid-fi equipment.
 

majingotan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
1,511
Likes
1,781
Location
Laguna, Philippines
If expectation bias was so significant, there would be no objective foundation to compare audio equipment in a store, test drive multiple cars, or even to try multiple restaurants.

This is what it used to be in the audio hobby prior to ASR. Lots of people blind buy so many things, and I used to be one when I bought the Sony MDR 7506 more than a decade ago as my expectation bias for studio monitor sound is through the roof, only to find out that this headphones is only good for tracking in the studio and not for listening to music in general.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
It is clear many DACs sound so close as to make sound preference between them irrelevant but the outliers are sonically distinguishable from the lead pack, even on mid-fi equipment.

correct, that doesn't excuse someone listening for an actual difference to do this not level matched within 0.1dB and blind. In such case the outliers will be proven to sound different without the chance of being fooled by avoidable aspects.
On top of that... the outliers may even be preferred in some cases as well but that is taste, not signal fidelity actually being better.
 

ahofer

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
4,952
Likes
8,698
Location
New York City
Incorrect. Demonstrating the phenomenon to be real (by the way... after I indicated the same) does not demonstrate the effect is considered with a weight reasonable to the power of the effect. Your assertion does not stand.

If expectation bias was so significant, there would be no objective foundation to compare audio equipment in a store, test drive multiple cars, or even to try multiple restaurants.

Expectation bias is a minor factor with direct comparison the major factor. Also, expectation bias does seem to be more significant with some people so that's a bit of a wild card.

Look, I know people swoon over equipment with the most impressive display and/or the highest price. That effect is real and not productive to having the best sound. Few people have heard the TOTL Wilson Audio speakers or other ridiculously priced esoteric equipment but it's clear from attending audio shows this gear comes with an objectivity distortion field that causes people to swoon despite other, less expensive and far better set up, gear in other rooms sounding similar or better for a tiny fraction of the price. I suspect we share the same point of view, in this regard but...

I worked at an audio store in the 1980s. My brother worked for Sony during that time and into the 90s. Every chance there has been to A/B equipment I've jumped at it. It has been extremely enlightening and a lot of fun. I believe my non-blind A/B experience mostly determined the correct result. I'm sure a few of my determinations were not correct due to environmental factors, expectation bias, sample variation, etc. Still, it's clear to me this effort yielded a great foundation of knowledge that was frequently contrary to popular thinking in industry publications of the day.

Many other (but not all) in this hobby are on the same journey as I have been. They may be in a different segment of the arc and they will undoubtedly arrive at a different destination but that is the point. They are trying, comparing, reading, learning,... that is audio. Of course blind listening tests are preferable since they produce the correct result with better regularity to transparent comparisons but the direct comparisons are still valid.

On this site, I see a lot of people take the position that all DACs sound the same. They don't. It is clear many DACs sound so close as to make sound preference between them irrelevant but the outliers are sonically distinguishable from the lead pack, even on mid-fi equipment.

you seem to persist in your belief that I am trying to invalidate your AB comparisons and that I maintain that all DACs sound the same without exception. I have done neither upthread. It is true that I wouldn’t accept AB comparisons as definitive. But I use it myself and you are welcome to as well. You just can’t generalize at all from it.

As for expectation bias being a “minor” factor, that was a large n study that showed people believing, about *half* the time, that the same tweak was in fact two different tweaks. If you think an implied error rate of 50% is a minor factor, then you and I define “minor” differently. With my definition it would be difficult to overstate its importance to establishing audible differences.

unfortunately, the way the audio hobby is set up it is difficult to make controlled comparisons. I have a very long post elsewhere in this forum on how Market success/survival of the audio market as it is does not mean *anything* about sound quality.
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...or-audio-thrive-in-a-competitive-market.9468/
 
Last edited:

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,627
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
Incorrect. Demonstrating the phenomenon to be real (by the way... after I indicated the same) does not demonstrate the effect is considered with a weight reasonable to the power of the effect. Your assertion does not stand.

If expectation bias was so significant, there would be no objective foundation to compare audio equipment in a store, test drive multiple cars, or even to try multiple restaurants.

Expectation bias is a minor factor with direct comparison the major factor. Also, expectation bias does seem to be more significant with some people so that's a bit of a wild card.

Look, I know people swoon over equipment with the most impressive display and/or the highest price. That effect is real and not productive to having the best sound. Few people have heard the TOTL Wilson Audio speakers or other ridiculously priced esoteric equipment but it's clear from attending audio shows this gear comes with an objectivity distortion field that causes people to swoon despite other, less expensive and far better set up, gear in other rooms sounding similar or better for a tiny fraction of the price. I suspect we share the same point of view, in this regard but...

I worked at an audio store in the 1980s. My brother worked for Sony during that time and into the 90s. Every chance there has been to A/B equipment I've jumped at it. It has been extremely enlightening and a lot of fun. I believe my non-blind A/B experience mostly determined the correct result. I'm sure a few of my determinations were not correct due to environmental factors, expectation bias, sample variation, etc. Still, it's clear to me this effort yielded a great foundation of knowledge that was frequently contrary to popular thinking in industry publications of the day.

Many other (but not all) in this hobby are on the same journey as I have been. They may be in a different segment of the arc and they will undoubtedly arrive at a different destination but that is the point. They are trying, comparing, reading, learning,... that is audio. Of course blind listening tests are preferable since they produce the correct result with better regularity to transparent comparisons but the direct comparisons are still valid.

On this site, I see a lot of people take the position that all DACs sound the same. They don't. It is clear many DACs sound so close as to make sound preference between them irrelevant but the outliers are sonically distinguishable from the lead pack, even on mid-fi equipment.

Uh huh.
 

raistlin65

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
2,279
Likes
3,421
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
If expectation bias was so significant, there would be no objective foundation to compare audio equipment in a store, test drive multiple cars, or even to try multiple restaurants.

Ummm... It is a given that audio stores are usually terrible places to compare electronics. Not sure why you would think anybody here would think the contrary???

Audio electronics are different in kind from food and cars. Audio electronics may often have little or no difference in sound quality when level matched in a double blind test. No one here is going to claim that it's necessary to double blind test pizza from different vendors because it might actually taste the same. lol
 

ahofer

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
4,952
Likes
8,698
Location
New York City
Ummm... It is a given that audio stores are usually terrible places to compare electronics. Not sure why you would think anybody here would think the contrary???

Audio electronics are different in kind from food and cars. Audio electronics may often have little or no difference in sound quality when level matched in a double blind test. No one here is going to claim that it's necessary to double blind test pizza from different vendors because it might actually taste the same. lol


There isn’t much of a truly objective basis to compare restaurants or cars, I don’t think. At least with cars we have tests that can be replicated. But there are cars that feel faster but aren’t. So performance and preference can still be at odds

Furthermore, with food it only matters how you like it when and where you consume it. There just isn’t an objective standard.

You listen to a component in the shop to *try* to figure out how it is going to sound at home. Honestly, most stores suck for that, and they often discourage you from doing things that would help (use your own music library and/or components, compare amps and cables directly in the same setup, take stuff home on trial, etc.)
 

raistlin65

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
2,279
Likes
3,421
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
There isn’t much of a truly objective basis to compare restaurants or cars, I don’t think. At least with cars we have tests that can be replicated. But there are cars that feel faster but aren’t. So performance and preference can still be at odds

Furthermore, with food it only matters how you like it when and where you consume it. There just isn’t an objective standard.

You listen to a component in the shop to *try* to figure out how it is going to sound at home. Honestly, most stores suck for that, and they often discourage you from doing things that would help (use your own music library and/or components, compare amps and cables directly in the same setup, take stuff home on trial, etc.)

Right. But this discussion has so far focused on how DACs and amps, which may objectively sound the same due to the limits of human hearing, may have expectation bias which prevents one from discerning that.

Cars and food are more like speakers. While certainly expectation bias may affect perception, they do necessarily have some differences. Once again, no one's going to suggest that we do double blind test on pizza from different restaurants because we think they're going to taste the same.

In other words, if you want to talk about speakers (and cars and food) that seems a different discussion.
 

BobbyTimmons

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2019
Messages
355
Likes
398
I agree. I frequently try to help people out on reddit who are looking for DAC and headphone amp purchases. I happily provide some information and some explanation to someone new to the hobby trying to learn.

But when the audiophiles show up who try to pick a fight (probably because they don't like how objectivist views make them insecure about their purchases), I usually tell them that the subject has been debated for a dozen years or more on the Internet, and they can find someone else to argue with. There is little sense in debating someone who is firmly entrenched against what audio science tells us.
Yes, but look at this forum, where some people are a little obsessed about DAC measurements (even those these are inaudible). Is it that so different to Reddit?

The most important consideration when buying a DAC are its connections, its reliability and its guarantee/return policy.
 
Last edited:

Julf

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
3,006
Likes
3,998
Location
Amsterdam, The Netherlands

raistlin65

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
2,279
Likes
3,421
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Yes, but look at this forum, where some people are a little obsessed about DAC measurements (even those these are inaudible). Is it that so different to Reddit?

The most important consideration when buying a DAC are its connections, its reliability and its guarantee/return policy.

There is a huge difference between buying a product that is likely over-engineered for one's needs vs. believing in trusting your own ears and saying you can't trust graphs and measurements. A lot of audiofoolery is more akin to flat earthers who also choose to rely on human perception and deny accepted science.

However, if you truly believe those things are all alike, you are in the wrong place, dude.
 
Top Bottom