Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[SIY]

Vini, you'd be shocked at how bad humans are at detecting separation differences. To put it in perspective, a good phono cartridge will likely have -25dB or so of crosstalk, deteriorating badly at high frequencies, yet people rave about the imaging and wall-to-wall soundstage...

 

[raistlin65]

You mean you don't? Must not have a 'resolving enough' system. Start with your USB cables...

Don't you have to have a power conditioner before you start worrying about better USB cables?

 

[Jimbob54]

Don't you have to have a power conditioner before you start worrying about better USB cables?

Amateur- your own personal power station.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

I’ve been searching the AES library and have been unable to find any, so I thought I’d ask here: Have there been any academic-level blind tests of DACs published, particularly ones that use both trained and untrained listeners?

 

[Plcamp]

I’ve been searching the AES library and have been unable to find any, so I thought I’d ask here: Have there been any academic-level blind tests of DACs published, particularly ones that use both trained and untrained listeners?

Does “blind” even mean anything? You just get an opinion matrix out of that.

Perhaps a more objective test, still blind...but something like “tell us if you can hear a glass breaking in the background of this music” (you mix in, or not, that sound at progressively louder levels until detected) would allow an objective assessment of whether there is or not any significant difference between two?

I have doubts that the DAC differences matter. I think you are limited first by your listening room and second by your speakers...and both of those have gigantically more impact than which DAC.

 

[solderdude]

No AES member so don't know.

Is such a test important ?
It is essential to know who the participants were and what their level of training was and what the difference was with 'average' people.
What other equipment should be used and why ?
What DACs would have to be used and why would these be chosen ?
What would be the reason to perform such tests with what DAC's ?
Why would this have to be done at an academic level ?

 

[solderdude]

Perhaps a more objective test, still blind...but something like “tell us if you can hear a glass breaking in the background of this music”

Dire Straits, Private investigations.

 

[mansr]

Perhaps a more objective test, still blind...but something like “tell us if you can hear a glass breaking in the background of this music”

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/03/749019831/the-voice-that-shattered-glass

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

No AES member so don't know.

Is such a test important ?
It is essential to know who the participants were and what their level of training was and what the difference was with 'average' people.
What other equipment should be used and why ?
What DACs would have to be used and why would these be chosen ?
What would be the reason to perform such tests with what DAC's ?
Why would this have to be done at an academic level ?

It seems important to the question of if differences between DACs are audible.

 

[Racheski]

I’ve been searching the AES library and have been unable to find any, so I thought I’d ask here: Have there been any academic-level blind tests of DACs published, particularly ones that use both trained and untrained listeners?

To me that seems a bit like proving pigs cannot fly by dropping them from a rooftop. But it would be nice if we could all point to a rigorous, peer-reviewed, published article that did investigate this question.
To @solderdude point, how would one test this?
Would you have TEC vs non-TEC listeners try to identify 2 different amps under DBT conditions that are both very high SINAD and audibly transparent? Maybe you would use the same DAC, play sound from the DAC 2x, and ask listeners if they hear the same DAC or different DACs?

 

[Wes]

DBTs are important to us b/c they can identify what differences in SINAD are at the JND level.

That would allow confident use of a SINAD level to screen out electronics.

I'd start with an amp or pre-amp tho - and pick a top one vs. a yellow level.

 

[solderdude]

It seems important to the question of if differences between DACs are audible.

They will be between certain DACs for sure. They won't be between DACs that measure quite similarly/below thresholds. Not all DACs sound the same which can be proven with proper blind tests. Most DACs will be indistinguishable when properly tested blind though.
It is not that 'we' claim all DACs sound the same.

 

[Theriverlethe]

They will be between certain DACs for sure. They won't be between DACs that measure quite similarly/below thresholds. Not all DACs sound the same which can be proven with proper blind tests. Most DACs will be indistinguishable when properly tested blind though.
It is not that 'we' claim all DACs sound the same.

Can you name a couple DAC’s that might reach audible thresholds of distortion?

 

[mansr]

Can you name a couple DAC’s that might reach audible thresholds of distortion?

Anything with a 5-figure (or more) price tag, whether as intentional "differentiation" or misguided design attempts. It's not a given there either, though.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Anything with a 5-figure (or more) price tag, whether as intentional "differentiation" or misguided design attempts. It's not a given there either, though.

I was thinking more like a Schiit Modi Multibit or Orei DA9 vs Benchmark DAC3.

 

[Jimbob54]

Can you name a couple DAC’s that might reach audible thresholds of distortion?

Drop Airist R2R? I've not heard it. But those measurements must be audible? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/massdrop-airist-r2r-dac-review.9565/

Now, audible distortion doesnt necessarily translate to "sounds bad" as we all know.

I'd love to blind test that and a DAC at the other end of the SINAD charts and see if I could spot it. Got to think trained ears would have a chance, even if mere mortals (like me) dont.

EDIT- and if no one could pick it as "different" in a proper test, we all ought to pack it in right now and give it all up as a bad job.

 

[Racheski]

They will be between certain DACs for sure. They won't be between DACs that measure quite similarly/below thresholds. Not all DACs sound the same which can be proven with proper blind tests. Most DACs will be indistinguishable when properly tested blind though.
It is not that 'we' claim all DACs sound the same.

But I think the question is whether there should be a DBT peer-reviewed published journal article testing this, for the sake of providing the best way to "...deal with people thinking a DAC has a SOUND SIGNATURE." I for one would like to be able to simply say, "read this" and link to said article.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Drop Airist R2R? I've not heard it. But those measurements must be audible? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/massdrop-airist-r2r-dac-review.9565/

Now, audible distortion doesnt necessarily translate to "sounds bad" as we all know.

I'd love to blind test that and a DAC at the other end of the SINAD charts and see if I could spot it. Got to think trained ears would have a chance, even if mere mortals (like me) dont.

EDIT- and if no one could pick it as "different" in a proper test, we all ought to pack it in right now and give it all up as a bad job.

The Airist might work. Looks like Amazon makes a $15 DAC now. I’m half-inclined to buy one and send it to Amir for testing.

 

[Jimbob54]

The Airist might work. Looks like Amazon makes a $15 DAC now. I’m half-inclined to buy one and send it to Amir for testing.

It will "beat" the airist.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

They will be between certain DACs for sure. They won't be between DACs that measure quite similarly/below thresholds. Not all DACs sound the same which can be proven with proper blind tests. Most DACs will be indistinguishable when properly tested blind though.
It is not that 'we' claim all DACs sound the same.

I was thinking something more like: Lots of people on GearSlutz, etc. claim to hear clear difference between DACs that “shouldn’t” sound different. Some of those people have even set up their own blind tests, but those tests are usually rejected by skeptics, fairly or not.

It would certainly be interesting if those people could bring the two DACs they think sound different into a controlled environment for a DBT. I’m sure if it were done someplace like L.A., there would be enough people willing to participate.