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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

majingotan

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Had some fun sighted A/Bing volume matched these two DACs (Mojo and A&Ultima SP2000) in their 3V lineout mode (both output at 3V for unbalanced) to my Schiit Saga pre to Yamaha HS7 speakers. What’s interesting is that both of these units sound quite noticeably different when using an IEM as direct load with the SP2000 having better treble presence than the Mojo with my CA Andromeda IEM. Put both of them under their lineout mode and the sonic differences disappears. Both sound great out of the HS7 speakers without any hint of distortion under loud listening sessions
17422D94-82A4-4C9B-BAB5-E7BE542CB8CE.jpeg
 
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DeepFried

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going back to the OP title question, it implies that DACs don't have a sound signature, or that they are indistinguishable from each other under identical listening conditions.

This is an interesting question that i've been looking at myself over the last few days, I always thought that my PC soundcard sounded better than my external DAC/amp (Fiio K3), to me the soundcard sounded like it had more clarity and detail and the K3 just sounded more flat.

I was convinced of this but then I started to read around the subject of DAC chips, the K3 has an AKM chip and my soundcard has a ESS sabre chip - ok so maybe thats the reason for the difference, but I found a lot of people saying all DAC chips sound identical. So I though maybe the implementation of of the DAC chip, or the amplifier was accounting for the difference, but then I found this site the data on which suggests that the vast majority of DACs and amps are audibly transparent under normal listening conditions.

So, I set up a level matched DBT to the best that my equipment would allow. I used voicemeeter to output sound simultaneously to both audio devices (K3 and soundcard), I ran identical 2m extension cables from both devices and tied the cables together with velcro ties at two points, keeping them the same length at the testing end. I then used a sound meter app on my phone to match the volumes on each source by placing the phone between the headphone earcups and switching over the source until both measured 70db with a constant tone. I then lay down, facing away from the devices and shuffled the cables until I was sure I didn't know which was which.

I then listened to a variety of music, one track on loop, swapping over the sources by plugging the headphones from one cable to the other until I'd decided which sounded 'better', then I'd check which it was by disconnecting one of the cables from the source device to see if it kept playing or not. I noted down which device was chosen each time.

Now the very first thing I noticed, to my dismay, was that both sounded practically identical. I was expecting clear and easy differences, this apparently was not going to be as easy as I thought. So on the first track I was listening for maybe 30 minutes, fast swapping and sometimes letting one source play longer or the whole track. By the end of the 30 minutes I had a clear preference for one of the cables (sources) it was very very slightly clearer at the top end of the dynamic range and I thought the background sounded a little blacker - it turned out to be the K3, already a surprise as I expected the soundcard to walk the test every time.

5 tests later I'd chosen the K3 every time and I started to get suspicious, i'd got good and finding the differences and it was easiest to spot in the transition from a quieter segment to a louder one, the clarity in the louder notes was very slightly different. So I stopped testing and checked the levels again. Somehow the K3 was 1db higher than the soundcard. So fairly clearly I was choosing the louder device. I redid the level match, perhaps getting to within half a db, sadly my setup cannot really get better than that.

I started testing again and immediately the difference i'd trained myself to find was gone, they sounded identical. I listened for a good 20 minutes trying to find some other differentiation but I couldn't come to a choice between them, they were just too similar to do anything other than random guess. Thats where I stopped the test.

So, although far from scientific rigour, this demonstrated to me that at least at my normal listening levels, and with the headphones I used for the test (DT770pro 250ohm), I am unable to distinguish between the DAC/Amp's tested, but i'm apparently very good at noticing very small volume differences, and those small volume differences sound like quality differences. A surprising result for me, but i'm forced to accept it.
 

Jimbob54

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Had some fun sighted A/Bing volume matched these two DACs (Mojo and A&Ultima SP2000) in their 3V lineout mode (both output at 3V for unbalanced) to my Schiit Saga pre to Yamaha HS7 speakers. What’s interesting is that both of these units sound quite noticeably different when using an IEM as direct load with the SP2000 having better treble presence than the Mojo with my CA Andromeda IEM. Put both of them under their lineout mode and the sonic differences disappears. Both sound great out of the HS7 speakers without any hint of distortion under loud listening sessions
View attachment 69788

I had a hell of a time on here trying to tell someone that a DAC/amp is not just a DAC when under load and that more than likely explains any change in "sound" between 2 devices that may measure similarly (as DACs) .
 

Jimbob54

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going back to the OP title question, it implies that DACs don't have a sound signature, or that they are indistinguishable from each other under identical listening conditions.

This is an interesting question that i've been looking at myself over the last few days, I always thought that my PC soundcard sounded better than my external DAC/amp (Fiio K3), to me the soundcard sounded like it had more clarity and detail and the K3 just sounded more flat.

I was convinced of this but then I started to read around the subject of DAC chips, the K3 has an AKM chip and my soundcard has a ESS sabre chip - ok so maybe thats the reason for the difference, but I found a lot of people saying all DAC chips sound identical. So I though maybe the implementation of of the DAC chip, or the amplifier was accounting for the difference, but then I found this site the data on which suggests that the vast majority of DACs and amps are audibly transparent under normal listening conditions.

So, I set up a level matched DBT to the best that my equipment would allow. I used voicemeeter to output sound simultaneously to both audio devices (K3 and soundcard), I ran identical 2m extension cables from both devices and tied the cables together with velcro ties at two points, keeping them the same length at the testing end. I then used a sound meter app on my phone to match the volumes on each source by placing the phone between the headphone earcups and switching over the source until both measured 70db with a constant tone. I then lay down, facing away from the devices and shuffled the cables until I was sure I didn't know which was which.

I then listened to a variety of music, one track on loop, swapping over the sources by plugging the headphones from one cable to the other until I'd decided which sounded 'better', then I'd check which it was by disconnecting one of the cables from the source device to see if it kept playing or not. I noted down which device was chosen each time.

Now the very first thing I noticed, to my dismay, was that both sounded practically identical. I was expecting clear and easy differences, this apparently was not going to be as easy as I thought. So on the first track I was listening for maybe 30 minutes, fast swapping and sometimes letting one source play longer or the whole track. By the end of the 30 minutes I had a clear preference for one of the cables (sources) it was very very slightly clearer at the top end of the dynamic range and I thought the background sounded a little blacker - it turned out to be the K3, already a surprise as I expected the soundcard to walk the test every time.

5 tests later I'd chosen the K3 every time and I started to get suspicious, i'd got good and finding the differences and it was easiest to spot in the transition from a quieter segment to a louder one, the clarity in the louder notes was very slightly different. So I stopped testing and checked the levels again. Somehow the K3 was 1db higher than the soundcard. So fairly clearly I was choosing the louder device. I redid the level match, perhaps getting to within half a db, sadly my setup cannot really get better than that.

I started testing again and immediately the difference i'd trained myself to find was gone, they sounded identical. I listened for a good 20 minutes trying to find some other differentiation but I couldn't come to a choice between them, they were just too similar to do anything other than random guess. Thats where I stopped the test.

So, although far from scientific rigour, this demonstrated to me that at least at my normal listening levels, and with the headphones I used for the test (DT770pro 250ohm), I am unable to distinguish between the DAC/Amp's tested, but i'm apparently very good at noticing very small volume differences, and those small volume differences sound like quality differences. A surprising result for me, but i'm forced to accept it.

Thats why those that know things on here (I'm not one) say you really need to level match with a voltmeter as fractions of a volt/ db can impact ones preference . I dont have a voltmeter so I would probably approach your method first as a rough start. Interesting findings, especially about the levels. Makes you wonder when you go to a hifi shop and "listen", what you are actually listening to. If DACs, youll probably walk out with the one with the highest output.
 

Objectivist01

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Had some fun sighted A/Bing volume matched these two DACs (Mojo and A&Ultima SP2000) in their 3V lineout mode (both output at 3V for unbalanced) to my Schiit Saga pre to Yamaha HS7 speakers. What’s interesting is that both of these units sound quite noticeably different when using an IEM as direct load with the SP2000 having better treble presence than the Mojo with my CA Andromeda IEM. Put both of them under their lineout mode and the sonic differences disappears. Both sound great out of the HS7 speakers without any hint of distortion under loud listening sessions
View attachment 69788
Your AK devices measurement is not available here. Hence difference can be there, if they both do not show same harmonic distortion pattern. Not worth looking deeper unless both are measured and both show exact same freq response.
 

Jimbob54

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Your AK devices measurement is not available here. Hence difference can be there, if they both do not show same harmonic distortion pattern. Not worth looking deeper unless both are measured and both show exact same freq response.
What? Walk me through that one again please. @majingotan did (admittedly a sighted) level matched test under load and no load. He observed differences under load, not when both feeding a pre amp (virtually no load). Which I believe is exactly what most would expect.
 

majingotan

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Your AK devices measurement is not available here. Hence difference can be there, if they both do not show same harmonic distortion pattern. Not worth looking deeper unless both are measured and both show exact same freq response.

Harmonic distortion in both devices should be inaudible at 3V RMS lineout. AK quoted 0.0005% (106 dB SINAD) at 0dBFS condition no load.
Their differences only show on the headphone amp part where you put a very low resistance load such as CA Andromeda IEM at ~4 ohms in the bass region. That's why it sounds different with different headphone amp as the damping factor is pretty significant in this case. My point is that well engineered DACs are indistinguishable even under sighted volume matched listening to my case. The key part is the volume matched, but DBT is of course the absolute standard for evaluation.
Capture.PNG
 

majingotan

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I had a hell of a time on here trying to tell someone that a DAC/amp is not just a DAC when under load and that more than likely explains any change in "sound" between 2 devices that may measure similarly (as DACs) .

The amp part is why I prefer the sound of this AK SP2000 DAP in particular (the dual AK4499 chip is just a bonus). I did try many portable sources for my Andromeda without cable resistors in between like the iFi IE Match ranging from the Apple Lightning Dongle, to Mojo (hisses with Andromeda) to even the Sony WM1A and WM1Z (both Sony units hiss quite noticeably), but this SP2000's amplification is the only thing that impressed me in all areas of its sound. It's not until a few months after purchasing this DAP that I started reading subjective reviews regarding its amp performance in a way that it's "devoid of sound signature". Two subjective reviews have already noted its "lack of sound signature" in its signal amplification. Then again as a caveat the differences those reviewer guys always note are incredibly small that they probably fail a proper DBT volume match test of 19/20 correct choice for amp A/B with most headphones (not IEMs), I would probably fail too in a amplifier DBT volume matched case, but can't help but succumb to the psychoacoustics of bias listening. I'm still not adept in how to explain their subjective impression in terms of electronic knowledge sense, but I don't think it's related to amplification SINAD or even dynamic range (which is probably more than enough for most recordings out there, but that doesn't mean the SP2000's amplification is considered audibly transparent) but more on how well its amplification can handle various sensitivity loads, impedance swings as function of frequency (damping factor), etc. within its power rating, and all of that translates to unaltered measured frequency response of headphones/IEMs.

index.php

Capture.PNG
 

Jimbob54

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The amp part is why I prefer the sound of this AK SP2000 DAP in particular (the dual AK4499 chip is just a bonus). I did try many portable sources for my Andromeda without cable resistors in between like the iFi IE Match ranging from the Apple Lightning Dongle, to Mojo (hisses with Andromeda) to even the Sony WM1A and WM1Z (both Sony units hiss quite noticeably), but this SP2000's amplification is the only thing that impressed me in all areas of its sound. It's not until a few months after purchasing this DAP that I started reading subjective reviews regarding its amp performance in a way that it's "devoid of sound signature". Two subjective reviews have already noted its "lack of sound signature" in its signal amplification. Then again as a caveat the differences those reviewer guys always note are incredibly small that they probably fail a proper DBT volume match test of 19/20 correct choice for amp A/B with most headphones (not IEMs), I would probably fail too in a amplifier DBT volume matched case, but can't help but succumb to the psychoacoustics of bias listening. I'm still not adept in how to explain their subjective impression in terms of electronic knowledge sense, but I don't think it's related to amplification SINAD or even dynamic range (which is probably more than enough for most recordings out there, but that doesn't mean the SP2000's amplification is considered audibly transparent) but more on how well its amplification can handle various sensitivity loads, impedance swings as function of frequency (damping factor), etc. within its power rating, and all of that translates to unaltered measured frequency response of headphones/IEMs.

index.php

View attachment 69875
Unlike you, I have decided that DAPs just arent for me - I have the Sony W1MA, its nice but its a pain to play tidal through it. I have the A&K SR15- easy to play tidal through it but no battery life. So in the end, for me , mobile is phone and dongle. Home is desktop kit. If I had known what I know now then, I could have spent more on headphones!
 

majingotan

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Unlike you, I have decided that DAPs just arent for me - I have the Sony W1MA, its nice but its a pain to play tidal through it. I have the A&K SR15- easy to play tidal through it but no battery life. So in the end, for me , mobile is phone and dongle. Home is desktop kit. If I had known what I know now then, I could have spent more on headphones!

Funny thing is that I don't even install any streaming apps on mine since I purchase songs online or get physical CD (if available for cheaper) rather than stream them and as such for my purposes, a DAP works well for off-line mobile listening. Heard bad stories of Qobuz crashing with offline files with the AK DAPs, but fortunately I don't use them. As a pure DAP, I expect zero playback issues, zero hissing with IEMs, zero EMI/RFI electrical noise, zero hissing with its lineout mode for 2-channel system for such a premium price and it meets my needs for now. It all rides to reliability and how well those AK devs release their firmware updates
 

paddycrow

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To the question that started this thread- I simply don't deal with them at all. I enjoy both digital and analog. The differences I hear are minute and I love the convenience of digital. I prefer higher resolution digital sources, but the improvement with each step diminishes to the point of inaudibility.

If someone wants to believe their $3000 USB cable makes a difference, it's no skin off my nose.
 

Plcamp

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I will admit I don’t know what to think about DACs. Never tried a high end one.

I use a pretty poor measuring minidsp 2x4 hd as a DAC right now. I didn’t like the noise floor on it, but that was quickly fixed by replacing their supplied power wart.

Surely I can obtain a measurably better DAC, but I lack confidence doing so will make a big sound quality difference.

Id also like to find one with HDMI input and control, so it can simply slave to a TV’s volume control.
 

jojolapin102

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Well, I might be late to this thread, but to talk about OP original statement, with moderns DACs, it's clearly impossible to distinguish them.



Let's be honest, people that justify that they can hear the difference do that to justify the money they spent on a ultra expensive DAC, or cable, or amplifier. As an electrical engineer, it's a pain to read a lot of misunderstood and false things on the Internet, about cable or DACs, or even amplifiers. I tried myself in blind tests to make the difference between two DACs, the one in my headphones amplifier and the one in my PC SoundBlaster soundcard. The one inside the amp is a PCM5102 with a DNR of 112 dB, and the one in my sound card is an ESS SABRE 32 with a DNR of 122 dB. Of course on the paper the ESS SABRE is better in terms of dynamic range and SNR, or even distorsion. But in real life, no one can make the difference between the two. I tried to distinguish them in blind and non blind tests, and the difference is non existent. They both have very good performance, and no matter what people will say, distinguish them, even in a non blind test, is impossible.



Then, we go about cables, the hardest myth around here. A cable is simply ideally a conductor, realistically it'll be a really tiny resistor with parallel capacitors and some inductances, but they are extremely tiny and small, and for audio applications, these are completely negligible. I wanted to test myself in blind tests, non blind tests, and even to test the cables with an oscilloscope and a signal generator. Prepare yourself for the result. I bought an AmazonBasics RCA to jack cable, 1.8 m long, and an audioquest RCA to jack, evergreen model, 1.5 m long. First, on blind tests, I was totally unable to make the difference between both of course. They are just cables with copper conductor, and except if the cable is really poorly designed, if the copper thickness is too small, on long distances you'll notice losses on signal intensity, but it'll not give the signal any color. Then, non blind tests, same thing, no difference at all. Concerning the build quality, the audioquest one is a little bit better, but the price difference is not a justification here because the AmazonBasics is excellent especially for its price. Here comes the interesting part, the frequency response I made using a signal generator and an oscilloscope. I expected the cables to have a frequency response up to some MHz, and I was right. I'm talking about -3dB response, and interestingly, the Amazon cable has a wider frequency response, from 0 Hz (continuous signal) to 50 Mhz, while the qudioquest one goes up to 30 MHz. Of course we don't care of such wide frequency responses for audio applications. But here you see, the amazon cable is fundamentally better, for a very much lower price, and with a bigger length. An important note, the frequency responses were totally flat for both cables, so NO color introduced at all. I finally returned the audioquest one and kept the amazon cable. I ended up by using only AmazonBasics cable for my installation because the build quality is excellent, especially for the price.

A more interesting thing to finish. People who think that cables which are used to transport digital signals change the sound. Of course we can all agree that an analog cable can pick up some interference and give them to the amplifier, but both cable tested before were excellent on that point. But then, for digital cables it's even worse. So I decided to buy two cables, an audioquest tower USB A to USB B to connect my DAC/amplifier, and an amazonBasics (again), 40€ for the audioquest, 6.50€ for the amazon one. I first tried to transfer some files to an external SSD, and both cables were topping at 50 MB/s, which is the physical limitation of good USB 2.0 implementation (theoretical is 60 MB/s). So thanks to my motherboard, and we first see that both cables are equals on that point. Then, sound tests ! I did a frequency response of the DAC/amplifier with both cables, and I noticed that nothing changed. This is not surprising, because we are transferring digital datas. That's all the advantage to transport digital data, picked up interference DO NOT impact the DATA at all, except if the interference are really powerful. I presume both cables are well shielded, and I couldn't test their frequency response as my signal generator didn't go above 100 MHz, and they were still giving the full signal without attenuation at 100 MHz. One thing interesting is that the audioquest cable is disconnecting from the PC if I move it a bit, which is disappointing on a such expensive cable. I ended up again returning it, and keeping the amazon one which is really good.

So what I'm saying here is, don't ruin yourself in cables, and keep that money for headphones/speakers, or better/more powerful amplifiers, because speakers are the elements of the chain that will give a color to the sound because of their characteristics, or because of the case in which they are, or even the room.

An end note about amplifiers. As i'm an electrical engineer, I know how to design amplifiers, and on the audiophile world, I see a lot of non-sense, I always end up to see amplifiers marketed as "pure class A with no feedback at all", and this is dumb as hell. These amplifiers are BAD amplifier, really! They are not stable at all, they consume a lot of power. Class A for headphones amp or preamp is ok, but NO FEEDBACK is a huge mistake, and those amplifier should be avoided by the consumer. Negative feedback MUST be used when designing amplifiers, and it DOES NOT affect frequency response, except if you're a bad engineer.

Thanks for reading and sorry for my English, i'm not native.
 

jojolapin102

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I will admit I don’t know what to think about DACs. Never tried a high end one.

I use a pretty poor measuring minidsp 2x4 hd as a DAC right now. I didn’t like the noise floor on it, but that was quickly fixed by replacing their supplied power wart.

Surely I can obtain a measurably better DAC, but I lack confidence doing so will make a big sound quality difference.

Id also like to find one with HDMI input and control, so it can simply slave to a TV’s volume control.
Most of the time the noise floor, or the bad background noise is due to poor power supply design, THIS is something way more noticeable than pure performance of DACs
 

Plcamp

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I had an experience with DACs used on peripheral equipment bays on a PBX system I worked upon in the 80’s. Not HiFi, but Interesting.

Turns out the codecs on those boards were very susceptible to rf noise on power supply rails, and we used a switching converter to supply that power. It’s noise was effectively being sampled by the codec at the framing pulse frequency (dividing that noise by that frequency), and output the remainder as a tone (aliasing).

So I took the framing pulse, multiplied to an operating frequency for the switching converter, and synced the converter...then ran the test again. Noise completely gone. Synced power supply noise, where the remainder is 0 hz does not matter, and contributes nothing on output!

I tried injecting synced noise on the rails, and even 3v rf noise on a 5v supply made no measurable difference on output.

The interesting implication could be that switchers, if synced to framing pulse, create inherently noise immune codecs?

(LOL, not really, I suspect 80’s noise problems designed out by now anyway).
 

A Surfer

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I can't help but wonder if there are design decisions in the analogue output stage that can be made in order to colour the output and give a sound. I think that it has been put to bed now that the digital conversion stage done by any competent DA chip and implementation will be audibly transparent to the user, but I do think that the analogue stage may be a different story. Curious what others think.
 

Jimbob54

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I can't help but wonder if there are design decisions in the analogue output stage that can be made in order to colour the output and give a sound. I think that it has been put to bed now that the digital conversion stage done by any competent DA chip and implementation will be audibly transparent to the user, but I do think that the analogue stage may be a different story. Curious what others think.

100% yes. Sticking tubes in the path and goodness knows what else.

The question is why do that and why pay for that!
 

mansr

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Here comes the interesting part, the frequency response I made using a signal generator and an oscilloscope. I expected the cables to have a frequency response up to some MHz, and I was right. I'm talking about -3dB response, and interestingly, the Amazon cable has a wider frequency response, from 0 Hz (continuous signal) to 50 Mhz, while the qudioquest one goes up to 30 MHz.
Keep going, and you may find that the AQ cable has a dip somewhere (depending on length) in the 30-50 MHz region.
 

jojolapin102

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Keep going, and you may find that the AQ cable has a dip somewhere (depending on length) in the 30-50 MHz region.
I've got to buy a new oscilloscope because mine is dead, but I'll definitely continue when I'll have a new one!
 

DeepFried

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A more interesting thing to finish. People who think that cables which are used to transport digital signals change the sound. Of course we can all agree that an analog cable can pick up some interference and give them to the amplifier, but both cable tested before were excellent on that point. But then, for digital cables it's even worse. So I decided to buy two cables, an audioquest tower USB A to USB B to connect my DAC/amplifier, and an amazonBasics (again), 40€ for the audioquest, 6.50€ for the amazon one. I first tried to transfer some files to an external SSD, and both cables were topping at 50 MB/s, which is the physical limitation of good USB 2.0 implementation (theoretical is 60 MB/s). So thanks to my motherboard, and we first see that both cables are equals on that point. Then, sound tests ! I did a frequency response of the DAC/amplifier with both cables, and I noticed that nothing changed. This is not surprising, because we are transferring digital datas. That's all the advantage to transport digital data, picked up interference DO NOT impact the DATA at all, except if the interference are really powerful. I presume both cables are well shielded, and I couldn't test their frequency response as my signal generator didn't go above 100 MHz, and they were still giving the full signal without attenuation at 100 MHz. One thing interesting is that the audioquest cable is disconnecting from the PC if I move it a bit, which is disappointing on a such expensive cable. I ended up again returning it, and keeping the amazon one which is really good.

One thing I think its worth pointing out about digital cables (USB, Coax) is that they can still transfer noise from the source if the source has noisy ground or power. Of course that's nothing to do with the cable per se and changing cable isn't going to help, but it does mean that digital in this sense is not immune to noise, there can still be noise if the source already has noisy power or if you're setting up a ground loop.

I have personal experience of this because one of my laptops has an audible hum in a USB connected DAC when using sensitive IEMs, but my PC or other laptops do not. This is resolved only by daisy chaining DACs with toslink (and so breaking the galvanic link).
 
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