• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

Claudisimo

New Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2020
Messages
3
Likes
1
Welcome, and please don't worry about that...we have many people for whom english is a second or third language, so don't let that slow you down.

Generally, I'd say a DAC is the box you buy that you plug one end into something digital, and out of the other end comes a line level 'analog' signal to be sent somewhere else, whether that be to a headphone amp, an external amp, powered speakers, whatever...

My SMSL M500, for example, includes a headphone amp, but I would just call it a DAC for the most part. Measurements are done at a line level output, not an amplified output for a 'DAC.' My Topping D50s...likewise...I'd call that a DAC.
That's my view, is that not what you would call it?
Yes, I ussualy talk about my jotunhem as dac (even when it is a digital-analog converter + headphone amplifier).

My point is that when people are talking here if a dac makes a difference they refer exclusively to the digital-analog converter or if they are always talking about both things. I'm kind of ignorant when it comes to this subjects, wich is why I'm not sure what are exactly everyone talking about. I always tought that the conversion process of digital to analog whas either done right or wrong, so no "sound signature" there, but the amplifier part was another story. I haven't really tried much equipment to say one thing or another, nor do I have a trained ear, so I don't know. But yeah, that's my confusion, when some say they find difference in the sound of dacs, they are talking about a unit that only converts digital to analog or if they mean the amplifier also.
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,625
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
Yes, I ussualy talk about my jotunhem as dac (even when it is a digital-analog converter + headphone amplifier).

My point is that when people are talking here if a dac makes a difference they refer exclusively to the digital-analog converter or if they are always talking about both things. I'm kind of ignorant when it comes to this subjects, wich is why I'm not sure what are exactly everyone talking about. I always tought that the conversion process of digital to analog whas either done right or wrong, so no "sound signature" there, but the amplifier part was another story. I haven't really tried much equipment to say one thing or another, nor do I have a trained ear, so I don't know. But yeah, that's my confusion, when some say they find difference in the sound of dacs, they are talking about a unit that only converts digital to analog or if they mean the amplifier also.

Generally what they mean is they haven't done an actual controlled test, and are imagining differences that aren't there...
You are correct...a competent DAC shouldn't sound like anything.
Actually, amplifiers are in a similar category, in that if you have a properly chosen amp, (power and impedance loads appropriate to the job) differences are going to be vanishingly small.
 

Claudisimo

New Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2020
Messages
3
Likes
1
Generally what they mean is they haven't done an actual controlled test, and are imagining differences that aren't there...
You are correct...a competent DAC shouldn't sound like anything.
Actually, amplifiers are in a similar category, in that if you have a properly chosen amp, (power and impedance loads appropriate to the job) differences are going to be vanishingly small.
Wow... that seems hard to grasp... good thing I didn't spent more money on this DAC (schiit jotinheim, got it used, like half the price of new, so far I'm very happy with it). Still, not cheap, but I considered for a moment save money more time and go for a "better" one.
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,069
Likes
16,598
Location
Central Fl

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,069
Likes
16,598
Location
Central Fl
Yesterday or the day before actually. :)
 

sejarzo

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
961
Likes
1,066
I'm crushed, I tell ya....CRUSHED.

Enough so that I finally hit the unsubscribe link.
 

Spocko

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
Messages
1,621
Likes
2,999
Location
Southern California
Wow... that seems hard to grasp... good thing I didn't spent more money on this DAC (schiit jotinheim, got it used, like half the price of new, so far I'm very happy with it). Still, not cheap, but I considered for a moment save money more time and go for a "better" one.
Sounding "different" is not necessarily "better". You may end up liking the sound of an even CHEAPER DAC not necessarily the more expensive DAC. Remember the DAC chip itself has very little to offer in terms of performance improvements - it's the analog section and implementation around that chip (AKM, Sabre, Burr Brown, etc.) which present these audible differences, but if the ultimate objective is accurately neutral transparency, then all DACs with that objective should sound the same. It's the DACs whose objective is to sound more "analog" or "musical" (purposely coloring and tuning the sound to the designer's taste) which has a sound signature; this is not right or wrong, no judgment intended here. Just know that you are paying more for that unique sound signature (like choosing a Fender single coil vs Gibson humbucker) not because it's more accurate to the source. Again, this isn't necessarily bad per se, but it is bad when the manufacturer claims that it's "more accurate" or "more transparent".
 

Spocko

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
Messages
1,621
Likes
2,999
Location
Southern California
I suppose a few other ASR members found this little gem in their email this morning...DOH!!!!!
View attachment 55175
I would just love to run a double blind between the Topping E30 DAC ($130) Amir just reviewed versus any DAC on that list to see what people preferred (or if they could even tell the difference).
 

sejarzo

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
961
Likes
1,066
I would just love to run a double blind between the Topping E30 DAC ($130) Amir just reviewed versus any DAC on that list to see what people preferred (or if they could even tell the difference).

Well, statistically speaking, about half would prefer the one that sucks, spec-wise. LOL
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,069
Likes
16,598
Location
Central Fl
or if they could even tell the difference
That's the real question. And in the end, if they actually could hear a difference, something would measure really wrong in the ones that could be detected.
 

A800

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 22, 2019
Messages
734
Likes
615
Sounding "different" is not necessarily "better". You may end up liking the sound of an even CHEAPER DAC not necessarily the more expensive DAC. Remember the DAC chip itself has very little to offer in terms of performance improvements - it's the analog section and implementation around that chip (AKM, Sabre, Burr Brown, etc.) which present these audible differences, but if the ultimate objective is accurately neutral transparency, then all DACs with that objective should sound the same. It's the DACs whose objective is to sound more "analog" or "musical" (purposely coloring and tuning the sound to the designer's taste) which has a sound signature; this is not right or wrong, no judgment intended here. Just know that you are paying more for that unique sound signature (like choosing a Fender single coil vs Gibson humbucker) not because it's more accurate to the source. Again, this isn't necessarily bad per se, but it is bad when the manufacturer claims that it's "more accurate" or "more transparent".

I might be in the minority but to my ears the sound of even the cheap (but well implemented) ESS9023 is more than good enough.
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,625
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
I might be in the minority but to my ears the sound of even the cheap (but well implemented) ESS9023 is more than good enough.

Not in the minority around here.
 

Spocko

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
Messages
1,621
Likes
2,999
Location
Southern California
I might be in the minority but to my ears the sound of even the cheap (but well implemented) ESS9023 is more than good enough.
That's exactly been Anthem's approach in its STR series and the new Hegel integrated amplifiers; both elected cheaper DAC chips because they simply sounded better in their respective implementations.
 

100rounddrum

Active Member
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
110
Likes
12
So true. In fact, you can make any headphone sound exactly the same if they have low enough distortion, with the use of EQ.

People buying both an HD800 and HD650, not knowing that they can make the HD800 sound exactly the same as the HD650 with EQ, and vice versa!
 

JohnYang1997

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Audio Company
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
7,175
Likes
18,292
Location
China
So true. In fact, you can make any headphone sound exactly the same if they have low enough distortion, with the use of EQ.

People buying both an HD800 and HD650, not knowing that they can make the HD800 sound exactly the same as the HD650 with EQ, and vice versa!
This is false.
 

majingotan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
1,509
Likes
1,781
Location
Laguna, Philippines
So true. In fact, you can make any headphone sound exactly the same if they have low enough distortion, with the use of EQ.

People buying both an HD800 and HD650, not knowing that they can make the HD800 sound exactly the same as the HD650 with EQ, and vice versa!

You can never replicate the HD800 sound precisely with any headphone that has different drivers, different construction, different earcups, different CSD waterfall graph, different impulse response, etc.
 

100rounddrum

Active Member
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
110
Likes
12
You can never replicate the HD800 sound precisely with any headphone that has different drivers, different construction, different earcups, different CSR graph different impulse response, etc.
All of that is irrelevant, if the driver distortion is low enough (such is the case with the HD 650 and HD800).
 
Top Bottom