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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

BobbyTimmons

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But even if the differences are inaudible (and mostly they are), the higher performing products demonstrate a technical knowledge and commitment to engineering that should translate to other aspects of the design. You should expect fewer problems with ground loops, better reliability (although DACs do not seem to be products that are highly prone to failure),
Where is the evidence that is true?

For example, Topping DACs are often recommended here (due to measurements). However, if you look at the reviews from people who actually bought them, they seem to suffer from poor reliability, or at least many, many reviews claiming that the product broke after a short period of time.

DACs do seem to be products that are highly prone to failure, if we look at some of the brands commonly recommended on this forum. On the other hand, the reason for their being recommended, seems to be because of their score in measurements which are inaudible and have no effect on sound quality.

This is a really great forum otherwise. Especially when the sample of owners of products becomes large in certain threads.
 
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BobbyTimmons

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I disagree with that. The differences is that we recommend products that are known in their price range to perform exceptionally well with objective evidences unlike those audiophile forums where more buzzwords like Golden ratio sized strands, Gold-Silver-Palladium alloy wire, Type 6 Litz with woven Kevlar core etc, are being obsessed without any objectifiable proof that those fancy wires are actually audibly different upon DBT ABX. Another difference is that we recommend any DAC that perform well in its price range, heck if bare bone functionality is what is being asked for recommendation, we would recommend the 99dB SINAD $9 Apple dongle over the 120 dB SINAD Topping D90 given that the chances of both DACs being audibly different through unbiased and proper DBT ABX is next to nil. We do recommend the DAC to your liking in your price range as long as the performance is on the "Blue" tier of the graph or in the "green" if your priority is features or looks or brand loyalty first then competent performance as second as this ensures that you're getting a more competent/engineered DAC rather than a poor one. On other audiophile forums, it's more of brand loyalty + more snake oil oriented manufacturing design (for cables) rather than being rational about purchasing decisions
But the DACs commonly recommended here - due to inaudible i.e. irrelevant measurements - seem to have low reliability when you check reviews of those same products on other sites.

Just look at the online reviews for Topping products, for example. For almost all of them, there seem to be a lot of 1 star reviews, with people saying they broke down (hard as that is to believe for a DAC).

So I really don't understand the purpose of this obsession with non-useful DAC measurements, that have no effect on sound quality, and result in unreliable products being recommended.

When it comes to DACs, we should focus just on functions and reliability. And you get a better perspective on that from Amazon reviews, than from the reviews here.

I'm not criticizing this forum though. As it is an excellent forum, with a lot of interesting and useful advice! (Just I find the DAC measurement obsession to not be helpful).
 

TimF

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I will be sure to correct you, the next time you are wrong.

Nothing personal. It will be best for everyone here.
TomB19 refers to bad ideas and bad "facts." If one is wrong is one bad? There are bad ideas, and there are bad ideas. There are bad facts and there are bad facts. When you correct me will you drive out the badness? Being correct about what is largely inconsequential, and if not inconsequential, then trivial as in the the least really significant thing in my life can be more a thing of pride than of good or bad.
 

TimF

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On a website about certain technical matters a contributer made reference to other person's bad ideas and bad "facts." I ask: if one is wrong is one bad? Furthermore I would add, there are bad ideas, and there are bad ideas. There are bad facts and there are bad facts.
The person who made reference to bad ideas and bad "facts" reserved the right to correct those who are mistaken. To that I say: when you correct me will you drive out the badness?

You see, often things that concern us and disturb us about others, or when others disturb us by reason of their beliefs and opinions, we want to correct them. We have a point to make to them. Regarding our position and our 'charge' around our position, I would say: Being correct about what is largely inconsequential, and if not inconsequential, then trivial as in the the least really significant thing in my life, can be more a thing of pride than of good or bad. We have a tendency to get fixated or obsessed with an inconsequential thing and often a very insignificant thing and we do it because it is then truly a safe preoccupation. We mind the small things.
 

majingotan

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So I really don't understand the purpose of this obsession with non-useful DAC measurements, that have no effect on sound quality, and result in unreliable products being recommended.

You ought to read this to understand the purpose of measurements and why it is done: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...derstanding-digital-audio-measurements.10523/

Amir has said in quotes: "Since there are product variations and test conditions that vary somewhat, I don’t suggest readers look too closely at the SINAD numbers. Instead, go by what “bucket” they fall in based on color-coding. For best performance you want products in the blue bucket and avoid those in red."

Even Amir himself does not encourage SINAD obsession that you're suggesting. He specified avoid in red and still go with your top priorities such as features, or brand loyalty (as long as the performance is NOT in the red zone. @pozz also recommended to concentrate for price, features and performance in other areas (e.g. thermal stability, reliability from Amazon/ebay comments, etc) and use the SINAD chart as a guide https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/sinad-measurements.4071/page-14#post-298880

When it comes to DACs, we should focus just on functions and reliability. And you get a better perspective on that from Amazon reviews, than from the reviews here.

Those are better served on Amazon or other forums. We should focus only on performance and hardware teardown (to see if the build quality is shoddy or not) and it's up to you to look for warranty benefits, reliability and failure rates on your own. Google is your friend for those purposes.
 

Guermantes

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Where is the evidence that is true?

For example, Topping DACs are often recommended here (due to measurements). However, if you look at the reviews from people who actually bought them, they seem to suffer from poor reliability, or at least many, many reviews claiming that the product broke after a short period of time.

Where is the evidence that this is true?

I just did a search for the Topping DACs that have been reviewed on ASR and I haven't seen the many, many reviews you speak of. Can you post some links? I'm interested as an owner of a D30 and D10 which have been trouble-free . . .
 

cjm2077

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Where is the evidence that is true?

For example, Topping DACs are often recommended here (due to measurements). However, if you look at the reviews from people who actually bought them, they seem to suffer from poor reliability, or at least many, many reviews claiming that the product broke after a short period of time.

DACs do seem to be products that are highly prone to failure, if we look at some of the brands commonly recommended on this forum. On the other hand, the reason for their being recommended, seems to be because of their score in measurements which are inaudible and have no effect on sound quality.

This is a really great forum otherwise. Especially when the sample of owners of products becomes large in certain threads.

Amazon is a great place to comparison shop, but it's tough to trust the reviews on certain aspects. Firstly, we don't know how representative the failure rate is from looking at reviews. We don't know how many total units were sold, or how many failed ones the bad reviews actually represent. It could be higher or lower than it appears. And secondly, Amazon reviews are widely known to be an unreliable cesspool of vendors promoting their own products, competitors trying to badmouth a product, and so on. Forums aren't much better, with similar issues. So I don't know that I would take evidence of dubious quality and place as much reliance on it as you seem to be advocating for.
 

pozz

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But the DACs commonly recommended here - due to inaudible i.e. irrelevant measurements - seem to have low reliability when you check reviews of those same products on other sites.
I'm assuming you're extrapolating based on an impression since over 100 brands have been reviewed. I can give you more exact figures and the ratio of recommendations later, if you like.
inaudible i.e. irrelevant measurements
I kind of smile at this type of comment when I see it. The only reason this sentiment has become commonplace is because ASR supplied it with enough proof through a combination of testing and research references. It's only now that the engineering quality can be linked to customer expectations. Those "irrelevant" measurements show you what's going on inside the box, something which had to be guessed at in the past.

Otherwise it's like you said: functions and reliability. Nice that many manufacturers participate here as well.
 

digicidal

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Amazon is a great place to comparison shop, but it's tough to trust the reviews on certain aspects. Firstly, we don't know how representative the failure rate is from looking at reviews. We don't know how many total units were sold, or how many failed ones the bad reviews actually represent. It could be higher or lower than it appears. And secondly, Amazon reviews are widely known to be an unreliable cesspool of vendors promoting their own products, competitors trying to badmouth a product, and so on. Forums aren't much better, with similar issues. So I don't know that I would take evidence of dubious quality and place as much reliance on it as you seem to be advocating for.

In addition, although certainly not the norm, it's entirely possible to receive a poor sample of a broadly excellent device and vice-versa. I don't mean PCB engineering quality of course... that should remain largely consistent (though there could be slight variance). However, on a product where perhaps assembly is performed by hand, or the packaging is inadequate for a particular shipping method - all you have to have is limited (or non-existent) QC and you can have a significant variance in end-user satisfaction. Especially likely when looking at more inexpensive offerings where the margins are already razor-thin.

You can also have significant noise in reviews based solely on how exaggerated the marketing for the device is. If the manufacturer uses advertising promising that their DAC is going to totally destroy the sound quality of everything you've heard previously... they may get a large amount of disappointed customers while still having a perfectly decent product (just ****** marketing).

No DAC is going to fare well if you think it's going to make that significant a difference in the overall sound of your system - at least not if it works correctly and your previous DAC wasn't broken. Unless you're the type that also thinks the cable makes a significant difference as well... then perhaps you would.
 
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mansr

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If a DAC model has a high failure rate, it is most likely caused by poor manufacturing. Even if the circuit design is dreadful, a properly assembled device shouldn't just drop dead. Conversely, the best of designs won't help if assembly is sloppy. And then there's Ciunas.

Substandard manufacturing can often be spotted by visual inspection of the PCB. Look for poor soldering, flux residue, badly seated connectors, etc. Even a working unit is likely to show some bad signs. And then there's Ciunas.

It is of course possible to imagine situations where the above doesn't apply. For instance, a poorly regulated power supply might subject components to voltages outside their specified limits, causing them to fail after some time. And then there's Ciunas.
 

BobbyTimmons

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You ought to read this to understand the purpose of measurements and why it is done: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...derstanding-digital-audio-measurements.10523/

Amir has said in quotes: "Since there are product variations and test conditions that vary somewhat, I don’t suggest readers look too closely at the SINAD numbers. Instead, go by what “bucket” they fall in based on color-coding. For best performance you want products in the blue bucket and avoid those in red."

Even Amir himself does not encourage SINAD obsession that you're suggesting. He specified avoid in red and still go with your top priorities such as features, or brand loyalty (as long as the performance is NOT in the red zone. @pozz also recommended to concentrate for price, features and performance in other areas (e.g. thermal stability, reliability from Amazon/ebay comments, etc) and use the SINAD chart as a guide https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/sinad-measurements.4071/page-14#post-298880




Those are better served on Amazon or other forums. We should focus only on performance and hardware teardown (to see if the build quality is shoddy or not) and it's up to you to look for warranty benefits, reliability and failure rates on your own. Google is your friend for those purposes.
Sure, these DAC measurements are as useful (or useless) as comparing similar measurements inside a digital watch, or the electronic user interface on your fridge.

All "mature" DACs should sound practically the same, so the relevant consideration is reliability, connections and features.

Unfortunately, it seems some people are inferring as if these measurements would have an effect on the sound.

So for example, March Audio, who simply buys a $80 DAC from China and puts it in a box, and then resells this for $420 each - is posting measurements from this forum onto his website to promote his business. And he uses Amir's endorsement which seems to imply there would be some audible effect implied by these measurements, and literally justifies its high price (which is more than 4 times the retail price from the DAC manufacturer): "MARCH audio dac1 delivers solid performance in an attractive packaging that you are not likely to find in more budget priced DACs. " https://www.marchaudio.net.au/dac-1

This is an excellent forum otherwise, with all kinds of great advice, and interesting discussions - but the differentiation of DACs like this is the one part I don't understand.
 
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BobbyTimmons

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Where is the evidence that this is true?

I just did a search for the Topping DACs that have been reviewed on ASR and I haven't seen the many, many reviews you speak of. Can you post some links? I'm interested as an owner of a D30 and D10 which have been trouble-free . . .
Often, it seems, that 10-20% of reviews of Topping products are people complaining about them breaking down.

https://drop.com/buy/topping-nx4-dsd-dac-amp/reviews#reviews

https://drop.com/buy/topping-d50-dac/reviews#reviews

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B075SYC4Z5/

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DX3-Pro-Headphone-Amplifier-Bluetooth-Black/dp/B07KG9P3X3/

For such a simple product, and "mature technology", as a DAC, this is a bit strange.
 

BobbyTimmons

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In addition, although certainly not the norm, it's entirely possible to receive a poor sample of a broadly excellent device and vice-versa. I don't mean PCB engineering quality of course... that should remain largely consistent (though there could be slight variance). However, on a product where perhaps assembly is performed by hand, or the packaging is inadequate for a particular shipping method - all you have to have is limited (or non-existent) QC and you can have a significant variance in end-user satisfaction. Especially likely when looking at more inexpensive offerings where the margins are already razor-thin.

You can also have significant noise in reviews based solely on how exaggerated the marketing for the device is. If the manufacturer uses advertising promising that their DAC is going to totally destroy the sound quality of everything you've heard previously... they may get a large amount of disappointed customers while still having a perfectly decent product (just ****** marketing).

No DAC is going to fare well if you think it's going to make that significant a difference in the overall sound of your system - at least not if it works correctly and your previous DAC wasn't broken. Unless you're the type that also thinks the cable makes a significant difference as well... then perhaps you would.
The thing that needs to be explained is that a working, or correctly designed DACs, should all sound the same.

But much as I love this forum otherwise (just a great forum, with a great atmosphere), in my opinion it is not explaining clearly to many visitors that DACs should sound the same, and that the DAC measurements discussed in this forum should have no effect on sound quality.

Just watch reviews like this where peoples' expectation bias, has made them hear amazing things in a DAC, which actually probably sounds the same as any other DAC the reviewer has.



 
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Incursio

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The thing that needs to be explained is that a working, or correctly designed DACs, should all sound the same.

But much as I love this forum otherwise (just a great forum, with a great atmosphere), in my opinion it is not explaining clearly to many visitors that DACs should sound the same, and that the DAC measurements discussed in this forum should have no effect on sound quality.

Just watch reviews like this where peoples' expectation bias, has made them hear amazing things in a DAC, which actually probably sounds the same as any other DAC the reviewer has.

There are people out there who will use every logical fallacy (read up on these: anecdotal, burden of proof, straw man, appeal to authority etc.) known to man to convince people otherwise (that all DACs sound different because 'what's inside them is different').

These people run forums and audio trade shows.

They have their own Youtube channels.

I suspect they have anonymous trolls spread comments on Youtube videos and other forums to sow doubt and confusion over certain products or people for the purpose of promoting others.

They take advantage of their audience's relative lack of technological understanding to 'sell' the idea, and many in their audience really just 'want to believe'.

They know double blind tests can prove them wrong, so they ban it.

They use pseudoscience to defend their 'beliefs'.

No offense, but I really think you're complaining about this on the wrong forum. :facepalm:
 

solderdude

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But much as I love this forum otherwise (just a great forum, with a great atmosphere), in my opinion it is not explaining clearly to many visitors that DACs should sound the same, and that the DAC measurements discussed in this forum should have no effect on sound quality.

What is the confusing, and not clear, part and why should DACs with very similar technical performance not sound the same ?
Why would audibility thresholds not exist and how can people hear things that are below well described audibility levels ?
One also needs to realize that it is clearly stated that not ALL DACs sound the same.
Some deviate on purpose other by poor design reaching audible levels.
 

digicidal

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That's happened dozens (if not hundreds) of times already. As @Incursio put it, the problem is that the concept that any transparent device should sound identical to every other transparent device - is essentially dependent on your approach to audio reproduction itself. It's similar to discussions of almost every social phenomenon - you're either preaching to the converted... or attempting to convert the zealous non-believers.

Literally the entire point of the forum is that all elements in the audio chain can be measured and quantified - yet there are still many who believe there is some audible "magic" which is somehow captured, engineered and mastered by "crappy pro-audio gear" - but only able to be recreated in their space by special esoteric audiophile gear. To the point that they are positive cables of identical materials and gauge sound completely different (because of branding, I presume). :facepalm:

In light of that... a DAC having a unique "signature sound" is actually much more reasonable. After all, DACs can easily sound different - they're just not transparent to the source in those cases, which is completely measurable. Accepting that fact is what is very difficult for many.
 

solderdude

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To the point that they are positive cables of identical materials and gauge sound completely different (because of branding, I presume

Or because they believe geometry and material choices matter (audibly) and as all cables measure differently are confirmed in their belief that such is caused by electrical/magnetic/static field and propagation properties. Not everyone believes in magic.

Funnily enough very few people complain about the copper traces on the PCB's but believe in special purity and different metal(s) of cables connecting to those poor quality copper traces and many solderjoints (using cheap lead-free solder). :cool:
 

digicidal

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Or because they believe geometry and material choices matter (audibly) and as all cables measure differently are confirmed in their belief that such is caused by electrical/magnetic/static field and propagation properties. Not everyone believes in magic.

Funnily enough very few people complain about the copper traces on the PCB's but believe in special purity and different metal(s) of cables connecting to those poor quality copper traces and many solderjoints (using cheap lead-free solder). :cool:
True enough... just like that last meter of mains wire - it's all that really matters. :p Although, to be fair, if I believed the only alternative was tearing all the Romex out of my walls and replacing it... I'd probably opt for the megabuck garden-hose-power-cord as well! Just like the speaker cables... it's all about that .00001% after all - which I would still call "magical" thinking.
 

Claudisimo

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Hi everyone. New in this forum, nice to meet ya all (sorry for the bad english).

I've been reading this thread and I'm under the impresion that some people are talking about "dac" as a whole unit of dac + amplifier, instead of just the digital - analog converter. Maybe I'm wrong and everyone here uses the correct terminology every time.
 

BDWoody

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Hi everyone. New in this forum, nice to meet ya all (sorry for the bad english).

I've been reading this thread and I'm under the impresion that some people are talking about "dac" as a whole unit of dac + amplifier, instead of just the digital - analog converter. Maybe I'm wrong and everyone here uses the correct terminology every time.

Welcome, and please don't worry about that...we have many people for whom english is a second or third language, so don't let that slow you down.

Generally, I'd say a DAC is the box you buy that you plug one end into something digital, and out of the other end comes a line level 'analog' signal to be sent somewhere else, whether that be to a headphone amp, an external amp, powered speakers, whatever...

My SMSL M500, for example, includes a headphone amp, but I would just call it a DAC for the most part. Measurements are done at a line level output, not an amplified output for a 'DAC.' My Topping D50s...likewise...I'd call that a DAC.
That's my view, is that not what you would call it?
 
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