Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Darkweb]

Why would the gold standard of scientific testing not apply to audio? Why wouldn't a Crown amplifier sound the same as a Levinson, if properly designed and built?

Better ingredients, better pizza.
Papa Johns

 

[NTomokawa]

@amirm @Thomas savage Please do banish the troll...

 

[JJB70]

Better ingredients, better pizza.
Papa Johns

The better ingredients would be the music you play. No amount of audio greatness will make me want to listen to music I don't like, conversely I really don't need a particularly great audio system to enjoy music I love.

 

[jsrtheta]

Better ingredients, better pizza.
Papa Johns

Then why does their pizza taste so lousy?

 

[NTomokawa]

The better ingredients would be the music you play. No amount of audio greatness will make me want to listen to music I don't like, conversely I really don't need a particularly great audio system to enjoy music I love.

Come now, let's not feed the troll and instead feed ourselves some pizza.

(I'm having rice tonight.)

 

[Darkweb]

If the differences between a Crown amp and a Mark Levinson amp go undiscovered in a blind test then they obviously aren't very significant. So unless you want audio jewellery just buy the Crown and pocket the few thousand dollars you save.

That was just a hypothetical. It depends on the context of your system. If you’ve got some bookshelf speakers jammed up against your basement wall then the Crown will do just fine and differences will be minute. If you’ve got some huge Revels pulled well out into the room then I’d bet on the Levinson making a clear and positive difference.

 

[jsrtheta]

@amirm @Thomas savage Please do banish the troll...

Maybe it's time for this?

 

[Julf]

@amirm @Thomas savage Please do banish the troll...

Maybe it's time for this?

Yes, please.

 

[JJB70]

That was just a hypothetical. It depends on the context of your system. If you’ve got some bookshelf speakers jammed up against your basement wall then the Crown will do just fine and differences will be minute. If you’ve got some huge Revels pulled well out into the room then I’d bet on the Levinson making a clear and positive difference.

I think few would dispute that amplifiers have to be appropriately specified for the load. But if the amplifier is appropriately specified and capable of driving the speakers then I find audible differences between amplifiers to be minor unless they have been designed purposely to have a coloured sound.

 

[jsrtheta]

That was just a hypothetical. It depends on the context of your system. If you’ve got some bookshelf speakers jammed up against your basement wall then the Crown will do just fine and differences will be minute. If you’ve got some huge Revels pulled well out into the room then I’d bet on the Levinson making a clear and positive difference.

Some years ago, in the 1990s, the late Tom Nousaine drove from Michigan to Florida to meet with the also late Steve Zipser, who owned a high end shop. The trip was the result of numerous exchanges online over audible differences between amplifiers and double-blind testing ("DBT").

Tom was armed with a low-rent Yamaha amplifier (might have been an integrated, I can't recall) and an ABX Comparator. Steve was armed with a top-of-the-line Pass amp.

Steve subjected himself to numerous DBTs, administered by Tom, in an effort to distinguish between the two amplifiers. Steve (who later related his side of things to me over dinner) failed miserably. Steve had not been a fan of DBTs, and I doubt the experience made one of him, but he was a decent enough sort that he didn't quibble. Well, too much anyway. And it was no a fun story for him to tell, so I applauded his honesty.

It would not be a stretch that a similar result would obtain between a Crown and a Levinson. I don't know that would be the result, because I am unaware of those two amplifiers being compared in a DBT. But I suspect the result would be the same.

I can report that I did an amplifier DBT in 2002. The comparison was between a B&K ST140 100w/ch amp (a well made but inexpensive amp), and an Electrocompaniet Ampliwire 100w/ch amp (a well made and pretty expensive amp). (Both amplifiers were mine.) I was unable to tell any difference, and the results were what one would expect from chance and guessing.

 

[Thomas savage]

View attachment 43981

Maybe it's time for this?

Darkweb is on record as preferring divorced dads so these nymph fairy's are wasted on him.

And yes he's epically dull but for some unknown reason he choses to waste his life here so one can only feel sorry for the poor man and treat him with a degree of charity .

I think as long as he feels clever he will be ok, he certainly tries hard to maintain that delusion. Congratulations I guess.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

I thought someone already pointed out the problem in a post above.

Next time, just use a DVM on the speaker terminals to match a test tone, or use a SPL meter.

The difference between false pos. and false neg. (or Type vs. Type II errors) depends on the consequence of the mistake.

Say you're in snowy mtns. and travel near a cornice - one mistake might slow you down; the other might kill you. Same with drug testing.

??

This is just an example of how worthless the blind tests are. They’re black holes where actual differences go undiscovered, but are then trumpeted as the holy grail in an effort to make divorced dads feel like they’re Crown amp sounds identical to a Mark Levinson.

??

 

[Darkweb]

Then why does their pizza taste so lousy?

They put snake oil in the sauce.

 

[tential]

If the differences between a Crown amp and a Mark Levinson amp go undiscovered in a blind test then they obviously aren't very significant. So unless you want audio jewellery just buy the Crown and pocket the few thousand dollars you save.

Funny he brings up the crown. The crown XLS is what brought me into the audio rabbit hole, and this was the exact explanation avsforum diy section gave me.

Also funny he thinks a "high end brand" like revel will let you hear the difference between a Crown xls and a "mark Levinson".
Essentially, he's trusting a brand name, and marketing story, and has zero data to back his claims.

So if I launch a speaker company, send it to the top speaker sites(who never have unfavorable reviews of "high end" gear), charge a couple thousand, and I now am selling high end gear. And people will defend it.
My comments aren't meant for this person, but for anyone who stumbles upon this in the future and wants to understand why this "high end" stuff is a joke. If you want "high end" learn how speakers work and build one of the many available designs out there...

 

[TLEDDY]

Okay, this forum is the one I spend the most time perusing.

Question: At what level of SINAD delta can one likely distinguish a difference?

For instance DAC’s. The best is MolaMa 121; then take Benchmark at 112; Khadas Tone Board@110; Schitt Yggdrasil @86 etc. So these are well engineered and transparent.

Where on the scale would a trained Golden Ear (not me) detect a difference?

 

[Wombat]

Okay, this forum is the one I spend the most time perusing.

Question: At what level of SINAD delta can one likely distinguish a difference?

For instance DAC’s. The best is MolaMa 121; then take Benchmark at 112; Khadas Tone Board@110; Schitt Yggdrasil @86 etc. So these are well engineered and transparent.

Where on the scale would a trained Golden Ear (not me) detect a difference?

Any particular age?

 

[TLEDDY]

Any particular age?

Well, I prefer new with a warranty .

But seriously, excellent hearing is likely the province of those under thirty. As previously mentioned, my hearing stops at 10kHz (on a good day) due to age of 78 and lack of ear protection during Army basic training. I am now an alter kaka.

 

[dieselmilk]

Re: DAC Sound
The only thing that I believe makes a difference in sound is how the components are shielded/protected from introducing noise from other electronics. This goes for cables too (that aren't broken or damaged in some other way). A cheaply made DAC will sound worse just due to shoddy construction or if it can be influenced by all sorts of other noise, and that's where I believe some extra money should be spent if you're running things like very nice speakers and amplifiers which is the area of audio I reside. I'll never suggest someone buy a $6000 DAC and I will be seeing how early I can get in on Soncoz's SGD1 next batch of hump-less DACs because I think the value he has created in possibly the most snake-oil infused industry is absolutely incredible and he deserves tons of recognition and success.

A lot of (you can't hear above/below) ??Hz is completely true, though I'm in the camp that does think being exposed to those sounds is still contributing, albeit minutely, to the experience. I just don't think it's worth taking out another mortgage to pay for that experience. Will you miss it if you never heard it? Probably not, but the end-all-be-all in how humans can/should perceive audio in music, and then basing technology (CDs) on that research and understanding, should not end in 1980.

Re: Cables
Jumping off what I said about DACs, I do not think a $10,000 cable with dozens of exotic alloys is increasing your enjoyment aside from the fact that spending an enormous amount of money excites you. All cables of the same type are transmitting the same thing, but incorrect-gauge or shoddy cables won't do it as well some of the time. This is where I say take just one step up in quality control and noise shielding so that you aren't exposed and you're all good. This is basically to say spend $40 for that short run of cable of correct gauge and shielding vs recycle an old printer cable.

 

[majingotan]

Okay, this forum is the one I spend the most time perusing.

Question: At what level of SINAD delta can one likely distinguish a difference?

For instance DAC’s. The best is MolaMa 121; then take Benchmark at 112; Khadas Tone Board@110; Schitt Yggdrasil @86 etc. So these are well engineered and transparent.

Where on the scale would a trained Golden Ear (not me) detect a difference?

Just succumb to the psychotics of sighted listening and you’ll hear the difference. No need for age requirements in this case

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Just tell them "Ok, boomer" and move on.