Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[jsrtheta]

Lol...If your looking for an apology for using the example I did you've cried to the wrong person. I don't give a rats ass if your offended or embarrassed. Keep your sensitivity out of the topic.

I don't think what I wrote is that hard to understand but if you need me to spell it out then yes the differences in sound between the products I listed are indeed very noticeable. Have you heard all these products? If so, can you say with a straight face they all sound the same?

I'm not the one suggesting they sound the same or different. I am merely pointing out that if you believe they "must" sound different, the burden of proof lies with you.

Can you meet that burden of proof or not?

 

[cjf]

I've provided no less proof than the OP of the topic of this thread. They claim all dacs sound the same but no one is crying to them to prove what was done to come to this conclusion. My posts are simply saying that I've compared these various examples of dacs and did hear noticeable differences.

How do you suggest I prove this to your standards? I've got no reason to lie and in the end it doesn't matter if you choose to believe me or not. I've chosen to argue that differences exist between these examples in my world just like the OP and others choose to believe differences do not exist in their's.

 

[Wombat]

I've provided no less proof than the OP of the topic of this thread. They claim all dacs sound the same but no one is crying to them to prove what was done to come to this conclusion. My posts are simply saying that I've compared these various examples of dacs and did hear noticeable differences.

How do you suggest I prove this to your standards? I've got no reason to lie and in the end it doesn't matter if you choose to believe me or not. I've chosen to argue that differences exist between these examples in my world just like the OP and others choose to believe differences do not exist in their's.

You just added "in my world". Your previous posts implied 'universal'. Be happy in your hearing/mind perceptions but don't casually apply them to others without justification.

 

[cjf]

You just added "in my world". Your previous posts implied 'universal'. Be happy in your hearing/mind perceptions but don't casually apply them to others without justification.

Huh, my posts speak of my experience and opinion of the examples I posted. I mention that its hard to imagine anyone with functioning ears could say differences do not exist between these examples. Have you heard these example DACs? Can you say they all sound the same if you have heard them? If not, your skepticism is no different than mine that all DACs sound the same.

The most obvious example in my list is between the Meitner MA1 a $7k DAC and the Benckmark DAC3. The Meitner sounds very warm/organtic and the Benchmark is clean as a whistle. Even blind I can't imagine anyone having a hard time picking out the two. I much prefer the DAC3 even though it costs a quarter of the price of the Meitner. I cant give you a more obvious example then this and if you have the chance to experience both products side by side I would be interested to hear if you came to the same conclusions.

 

[Wombat]

You may be right but just saying so doesn't confirm it. Saying others could hear the difference is presumptuous. Do you really expect others to own/experience all the items you list?
After your158 posts here, I get the impression that you aren't a wide reader of ASR, otherwise you would comprehend the replies to your posts.

Does 'my world' include like-minded others? If so, consider subjective groupthink?

P.S. Components can be audibly different if faulty, poorly designed or tailored for non-transparent sound. What are the odds that you happen to own an assortment of such?

 

[jsrtheta]

Huh, my posts speak of my experience and opinion of the examples I posted. I mention that its hard to imagine anyone with functioning ears could say differences do not exist between these examples. Have you heard these example DACs? Can you say they all sound the same if you have heard them? If not, your skepticism is no different than mine that all DACs sound the same.

The most obvious example in my list is between the Meitner MA1 a $7k DAC and the Benckmark DAC3. The Meitner sounds very warm/organtic and the Benchmark is clean as a whistle. Even blind I can't imagine anyone having a hard time picking out the two. I much prefer the DAC3 even though it costs a quarter of the price of the Meitner. I cant give you a more obvious example then this and if you have the chance to experience both products side by side I would be interested to hear if you came to the same conclusions.

I told you what would constitute proof. You instead proffer anecdotes done under, near as I can tell, uncontrolled conditions. Meaning, you have no cognizable proof of your claims. You are relying on your subjective, uncontrolled perception. Do a proper DBT and everyone here will pay attention.

And nominate you for the Guinness Book.

P.S. You don't have to do this. You would just have to stop making claims you can't support.

 

[cjf]

FWIW, I've done direct comparisons between the DAC3, Lynx Hilo and the previously mentioned Meitner. I own both the DAC3 and the Hilo today. In one configuration of my system I had these units sending their XLR Analog Outs into a Classe CP800 PreAmp. These Inputs into the CP800 were level matched and I could switch between them on the fly. By clicking the source select button on the PreAmp many times in a row I could not know which DAC was the current source as the same song was played back in real time.

During this test I could pick out the DAC3 most times between the others as it was much cleaner and the soundstage was more detailed in all areas (width,depth, center image..etc). With the Meitner such a test is not necessary as its very different.

So does the fact that I explained it this way change the point I attempted to make previously? As I'm sure we can all agree, explaining every step done to come to some conclusion is not always worth the time or text. I could also be full of $hit and making it all up just to try and prove my original point (which I'm not) but in the end my conclusion is still them same.

 

[Wombat]

So far, you have basically said that 'I have an assortment of DACs and I can hear differences between them to the point that 'you' can't deny it'.

Presumptuous claim until you can substantiate it.

It has been dealt with ad nauseum above and more so on this forum.

Be happy 'in your world'.

Your problem, not ours.

Keep buying DACs. It's a great audio business charitable activity.

 

[jsrtheta]

FWIW, I've done direct comparisons between the DAC3, Lynx Hilo and the previously mentioned Meitner. I own both the DAC3 and the Hilo today. In one configuration of my system I had these units sending their XLR Analog Outs into a Classe CP800 PreAmp. These Inputs into the CP800 were level matched and I could switch between them on the fly. By clicking the source select button on the PreAmp many times in a row I could not know which DAC was the current source as the same song was played back in real time.

During this test I could pick out the DAC3 most times between the others as it was much cleaner and the soundstage was more detailed in all areas (width,depth, center image..etc). With the Meitner such a test "is not necessary as its very different.

So does the fact that I explained it this way change the point I attempted to make previously? As I'm sure we can all agree, explaining every step done to come to some conclusion is not always worth the time or text. I could also be full of $hit and making it all up just to try and prove my original point (which I'm not) but in the end my conclusion is still them same.

Not even close. "With the Meitner such a test is not necessary as its (sic) very different." Uh-uh. Doesn't work like that. The idea is to tell if you can hear a difference, not to proclaim the winner based on nothing, which is what your explanation "is not necessary" equals.

Level matched how? By ear? Within what perimeters? It sounds like you plugged two different DACs into two different inputs, without measuring the output level of each DAC compared to the other DAC. Tell me how I'm wrong on that.

You don't have to make anything up. If this is the protocol you followed, it is wholly inadequate and scientifically meaningless.

Your protocol also doesn't match any ABX test I've ever heard of. You did the switching? Really? That alone disqualifies the result.

Also, your observations are typical Stereophile-speak. How can a DAC make a difference in "soundstage"? By what mechanism is that even possible?

Follow the protocols of a true ABX test. You don't have to do it, of course,. But don't represent your findings as having any validity without that.

 

[PenguinMusic]

Hi,
Reading the last posts is quite funny.
To sum it up there are two camps :

- CAMP 1 : the "believers" : they claim they can hear differences between devices. They say their loudspeakers/CD players/DACS/Amplifiers/cables sound different and they heard it for themselves. They say the measurements do not reflect the whole perceived sound.

- CAMP 2 : the "ones who know" : they say that it is impossible that 2 devices would sound different and that it simply cannot be because measurements do not show any difference. And to the ones saying that measurements aren't the whole thing, they reply that listening tests have not been performed in the correct manner...

I wonder how many of those tests with level reference set to 1db or even 0.5db the people in CAMP 2 performed themselves, as they admit that it is difficult, almost impossible to perform.

Here in France, it is not allowed to have comparative advertisement unless the products have "identical" specifications.
That also goes for food.
So it is allowed to compare two products that have the same nutritional facts. And those can be measured.
But the thing is, if I buy two packs of cookies that have the EXACT same nutritional facts and eat them, I can tell, in a really easy blind test, that they TASTE totally different.

If I listen to different interpretations of Beethoven's 9th, the notes played are the same... but some I cry al the tears in my body when others leave me purely cold as marble. One had pitch perfect recording, the other one has some hiss and some flaws... I may like the latter better nonetheless. The recording of said 9th during the war with Furtwangler as a conductors is really badly recorded, but still, you can FEEL how the whole orchestra was tensed and I get goose bumps each time I listen to it.

I also remember a dispute on a french forum where someone said : "There can be no difference in the image output of an HDMI cable. Either the cable is well engineered and assembled and you have the whole image, or it is not and so you'll only get a black screen. It is simple : you just measure MD5 output : if it is the same, then it CAN NOT be different".
I replied : "I can take that. But the thing is, I have 3 different cables. Between 2 of them I can notice a difference, but I can admit that it is purely subjective and that maybe the difference is not there. But the third one, in a scene where people are running in af orest when it is dark, I can see details with the 2 first cables ; the third is just totally scrambled with like a bunch of pixels. In the kitchen, the lines at the back on the furniture is totally straight with the 2 first cables ; it's like a stair with the third one". Totally same material, just cable switched. Totally reproductible...
Reply : "Your cable was defect"... Me : But then, according to the previous post, I should have had no picture at all ? Reply : "There are some really rare circumstances where a cable can be defect"... I obviously am not scientist enough :-(

DO NOT GET ME WRONG : I am not saying one camp is right and the other is wrong.

I can only say that after performing listening tests (I don't care about levels and stuff like that) I heard some devices I liked (sometimes rather expensive, sometimes amongst the cheapest ones) and got those because I liked what I heard. And if people tell me : "Look at the measures. That cannot sound good", then I can easily admit that it can't sound good, but I like it nonetheless.

My point is :
- there is science and if people like what they hear because they look at the tech sheet and say it sounds good because the spec sheet is good, I will NOT be the one trying to tell them otherwise ;
- there is subjective and if people tell me "I hear differences", I believe them too and will not try to convince them otherwise.

Some people come up to me and ask me "I would like to buy this device. You know it ? -Yes. -Is it good ? - Did you listened to it ? -Yes. -Did you liked it ? -Yes (No) -Then it is good (Then it is not good)".

And when people ask me how to perform a listening test, I simply say : "Do not sleep for a night or two. Then go to the show room and ask them to have a listen to the devices you're looking for. Play the music at pretty loud level. You can still fell asleep ? It's good for you. You just want to shut down the music to sleep ? It is irritating your ears, and so do not buy it".

Totally subjective I know.
But then I don't care at all.
Because that is what I will listen to for sometimes hours a day...
And I don't give a s**t if it is the "absolute sound".

And mind you, I like the way it is.
If there was such thing as absolute sound, then we would ALL have the SAME source (CD, DVD, BRD, Streamer..) ; we would all have the SAME preamp and amp and we would all have the SAME loudspeakers... maybe even listen to the exact SAME recordings and to the SAME music.
But we have not...
And I can't be more glad that we don't have it and can debate about the pros and cons of stuff !

So people, I am not trying to force my views of "absolute sound" on any member of this group.
But please, members of this group, don't try to force your own views on me.
That is called tolerance and freedom...
And in this world, my highest hope is that me and my daughters (maybe some day my grand children) will be able to enjoy both...
But I am growing more and more skeptical about it.

So what to answer to people that claim then can hear differences between DAC's ?
Just let them believe those differences are there.
Explainable or not.
And just say : "Me, I hear none".

Regards.

 

[solderdude]

Forgive me if I missed some of the posts in the last 26 pages but...

DACs show a wide range on the SINEAD (THD) measurement spectrum - so is one in the blue range really undetectably different (properly done listening test; dbl-blind, levels matched, etc.) from one at the lowest end (red?) - is that right?

You clearly seem to be an SBAF fan.

As has been said a million times before SINAD is NOT the sole indicator of sound quality in DACs, which is what the fearless leader of SBAF wants you to believe 'ASR' thinks.
SINAD is an indication of noise and distortion levels at 1kHz only at FSD or slightly below. This says something about electrical performance. Here comes the tricky part. You have to understand that there is a voltage coming out of a DAC. It can be made audible with transducers and measured with equipment that can 'sample' the same voltages but with much lower noise, much higher accuracy and a much wider bandwidth than ADC's in a studio. No magic alas nor missing signals that cannot be measured (voltage amplitude and time are the only aspects).

Then there is a second and most variable part which is the transducer/hearing part which isn't anywhere near the accuracy of test equipment even if that consists of a $100 soundcard.

At SBAF the fearless leader also realizes that distortion below 80dB is inaudible yet at the same time is fine with distortion reaching -30dB.
He also claims everything that is ASR approved is pure evil and sounds bad.

The problem here is that at ASR there is a realization that a SINAD may well be 90dB yet distortion at other frequencies or levels may be higher than the SINAD. Does this make SINAD a worthless measurement ? No.. it is ONE measurement among many others that all tell part of the story.
So this means that you may well need a SINAD above 90dB to be fairly sure there is no alteration of the to be reproduced signal and noise levels are low enough not to be audible using 'normal efficiency' transducers. You may need more if you also want to use sensitive transducers on the same system. This means that one may need a higher SINAD when it is noise dominated or mains hum dominated at 'normal' listening levels.

There you can see the 'value' of that single number that is ridiculed at other sites. But it is just a number which is easily ranked just like certain gear and its performance is 'ranked' by some folks at other sites with nonsensical aspects they personally perceive and put in diagrams which seems fully acceptable.

On ASR there are folks that like the least amount of distortion added as they realize their transducers are magnitudes higher. Most of them look for gear that is known (not claimed or said) to have proper performance that meets minimum requirements for this which can be seen from several measurements combined.

Yes, there is no correlation to preference of people. Most people prefer added distortion but prefer to call it house sound, musicality, magic, reality and what not as long as it doesn't jive with measurements (because of lack of understanding). Its preference.
EVERYONE has preference / taste and it may differ or be similar to that of others. Human nature is to seek out similar 'minded' folks and crap on the rest that does not follow suit or thinks otherwise (a form of audio-racism).

It's perfectly fine to love a certain brand, sound signature or certain types of (linear and/or non-linear) distortion and care or not care about measurements. One can believe whatever one wants and cuddle with like minded people.
It's also perfectly fine to 'believe' that measurements say something and can set the mind at easy.
In both cases this can set the mind to enjoy reproduced recordings better. Nothing wrong with that.
Some like jewelry others may enjoy pushing the limits of optimal performance with lowest investment and spend money on other things (like the next best SINAD device ?).

But to finally answer the question... SINAD value is NOT the only sound determining factor. It is one off the aspects that should be taken into account along with other aspects. NEVER should it be (nor does Amir suggest or think this) the ONLY decision factor. It's an indicator.

Some gear with a high SINAD can sound different from a low SINAD device where the lower SINAD device is actually closer to the original signal.
So... one really cannot tell whether the higher numbers actually are the better electrical performers at all.

My personal opinion, when using normal efficiency gear and listening to music at comfortable levels, is that a SINAD above 80 is probably fine (when other aspects are also O.K.) and can not be told apart in properly conducted level matched blind tests from also well performing (other aspects) gear with higher SINAD.
But... when using high efficiency transducers and sometimes playing at concert levels a higher SINAD may well be essential.

 

[Wes]

what is SBAF?

 

[raistlin65]

So far, you have basically said that 'I have an assortment of DACs and I can hear differences between them to the point that 'you' can't deny it'.

Presumptuous claim until you can substantiate it.

It has been dealt with ad nauseum above and more so on this forum.

And many other forums, for the last twenty years. lol

 

[majingotan]

what is SBAF?

Other forum who thinks that ASR only worships "The Holy SINAD". Solderdude clearly debunks this ASR aura from other forum on his response 2 posts from before.

 

[Wes]

I am still curious if DACs in the blue range are detectably different from DACs at the lowest end (red)?

or how many are, for the statistically curious?

 

[Wombat]

Hi,
Reading the last posts is quite funny.
To sum it up there are two camps :

- CAMP 1 : the "believers" : they claim they can hear differences between devices. They say their loudspeakers/CD players/DACS/Amplifiers/cables sound different and they heard it for themselves. They say the measurements do not reflect the whole perceived sound.

- CAMP 2 : the "ones who know" : they say that it is impossible that 2 devices would sound different and that it simply cannot be because measurements do not show any difference. And to the ones saying that measurements aren't the whole thing, they reply that listening tests have not been performed in the correct manner...

I wonder how many of those tests with level reference set to 1db or even 0.5db the people in CAMP 2 performed themselves, as they admit that it is difficult, almost impossible to perform.

Here in France, it is not allowed to have comparative advertisement unless the products have "identical" specifications.
That also goes for food.
So it is allowed to compare two products that have the same nutritional facts. And those can be measured.
But the thing is, if I buy two packs of cookies that have the EXACT same nutritional facts and eat them, I can tell, in a really easy blind test, that they TASTE totally different.

If I listen to different interpretations of Beethoven's 9th, the notes played are the same... but some I cry al the tears in my body when others leave me purely cold as marble. One had pitch perfect recording, the other one has some hiss and some flaws... I may like the latter better nonetheless. The recording of said 9th during the war with Furtwangler as a conductors is really badly recorded, but still, you can FEEL how the whole orchestra was tensed and I get goose bumps each time I listen to it.

I also remember a dispute on a french forum where someone said : "There can be no difference in the image output of an HDMI cable. Either the cable is well engineered and assembled and you have the whole image, or it is not and so you'll only get a black screen. It is simple : you just measure MD5 output : if it is the same, then it CAN NOT be different".
I replied : "I can take that. But the thing is, I have 3 different cables. Between 2 of them I can notice a difference, but I can admit that it is purely subjective and that maybe the difference is not there. But the third one, in a scene where people are running in af orest when it is dark, I can see details with the 2 first cables ; the third is just totally scrambled with like a bunch of pixels. In the kitchen, the lines at the back on the furniture is totally straight with the 2 first cables ; it's like a stair with the third one". Totally same material, just cable switched. Totally reproductible...
Reply : "Your cable was defect"... Me : But then, according to the previous post, I should have had no picture at all ? Reply : "There are some really rare circumstances where a cable can be defect"... I obviously am not scientist enough :-(

DO NOT GET ME WRONG : I am not saying one camp is right and the other is wrong.

I can only say that after performing listening tests (I don't care about levels and stuff like that) I heard some devices I liked (sometimes rather expensive, sometimes amongst the cheapest ones) and got those because I liked what I heard. And if people tell me : "Look at the measures. That cannot sound good", then I can easily admit that it can't sound good, but I like it nonetheless.

My point is :
- there is science and if people like what they hear because they look at the tech sheet and say it sounds good because the spec sheet is good, I will NOT be the one trying to tell them otherwise ;
- there is subjective and if people tell me "I hear differences", I believe them too and will not try to convince them otherwise.

Some people come up to me and ask me "I would like to buy this device. You know it ? -Yes. -Is it good ? - Did you listened to it ? -Yes. -Did you liked it ? -Yes (No) -Then it is good (Then it is not good)".

And when people ask me how to perform a listening test, I simply say : "Do not slepp for a night or two. Then go to the show room and ask them to have a listen to the devices you're looking for. Play the music at pretty loud level. You can still fell asleep ? It's good for you. You just want to shut down the music to sleep ? It is irritating your ears, and so do not buy it".

Totally subjective I know.
But then I don't care at all.
Because that is what I will listen to for sometimes hours a day...
And I don't give a s**t if it is the "absolute sound".

And mind you, I like the way it is.
If there was such thing as absolute sound, then we would ALL have the SAME source (CD, DVD, BRD, Streamer..) ; we would all have the SAME preamp and amp and we would all have the SAME loudspeakers... maybe even listn to the exact SAME recordings and/or music.
But we have not...
And I can't be more glad that we don't have it !

So people, I am not trying to force my views of "absolute sound" on any member of this group.
But please, members of this group, don't try to force your own views on me.
That is called tolerance and freedom...
And in this world, my highest hope is that me and my daughters (maybe some day my grand children) will be able to enjoy both... But I am growing more and more skeptical about it.

So what to answer to people that calim then can hear differences between DAC's ?
Just let them believe those differences are there. Explainable or not.
And just say : "Me, I hear none".

Regards.

Add CAMP 3. What credibility is behind the claims?

 

[PenguinMusic]

Add CAMP 3. What credibility is behind the claims?

Hi,

Who needs credibility in this debate ?
Both sides are convinced they hold the definitive truth.
That does not comply with credibility

 

[Wombat]

Hi,

Who needs credibility in this debate ?
Both sides are convinced they hold the definitive truth.
That does not comply with credibility

The two sides thing is in your head to facilitate your argumentativeness(which is sounding familiar). Read the thread again.

 

[PenguinMusic]

The two sides thing is in your head to facilitate your argumentativeness(which is sounding familiar). Read the threads again.

Hi,

Summing up the posts indeed.
And claiming that it may all be in my head...
And saying that I am happy it is so.

Either I don't get your point.
Or you walked by a really long distance from mine.

I will not argue.
Re-read my post, you'll know why.

Regards.

 

[solderdude]

I am still curious if DACs in the blue range are detectably different from DACs at the lowest end (red)?

or how many are, for the statistically curious?

As already said before. Whether you can detect differences between them does depend on circumstances and other measured aspects. SINAD is NOT the only measurement that can tell if they are audibly transparent.
So the short answer is: it depends on other factors than just SINAD.
It is just 1 of many aspects.
There are excellent DACs to be found in all ranges but would be weary of the red range.
Most of the blue range will be audibly transparent, just pick one with the right features/looks/connectivity/price for you.