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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

solderdude

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Not really. Every headphone amplifier subjective review I read comes with description of how its soundstage is different. Just finished a review and watched two videos on them and both were talking at length about supposed soundstage differences.

When we are to believe Rtings sound stage measurements (which are done in the acoustic plane, not electrical) then soundstage would be related to substantial (well over 5dB) deviations in FR in the 4kHz, 6khz and 9.5kHz ranges. Amplifiers (and DACs) usually have no deviations in FR at all.

Imaging is rated by (again acoustical) phase response in the 5-15kHz band.
Given that the HD800S images pretty well, it already shows very steep and substantial (120 degrees) phase differences over a small frequency band.
I think/believe only steep phase differences over very narrow bands may be audible.
Then it would make sense that amplifiers, which usually have little to no phase shifts and certainly not steep ones, also can not affect this aspect.
 
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Wombat

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When we are to believe Rtings sound stage measurements (which are done in the acoustic plane, not electrical) then soundstage would be related to substantial (well over 5dB) deviations in FR in the 4kHz, 6khz and 9.5kHz ranges. Amplifiers (and DACs) usually have no deviations in FR at all.

Differences vs which reference?
 

digicidal

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Not saying these won’t be reflected in some measurements but we don’t know what they necessarily are. If we did, then we could rule out effects from devices that do not alter such metrics which would be concrete proof that any claimed differences for such audibility is not real.

Phase and channel separation... is there one I'm missing?
 

audimus

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Indeed. How many people can accurately tell the distance between two objects in front of them with their eyes? And that's one of the primary tasks our eyes and brain do all the time. I'd love to see 3 listeners describe the exact same "distance" between the lead vocalist and a guitarist on the same track. I'd guess the differences would be measured in at least half the width of the room - if not farther. After all, great audiophile gear can "throw a stage wider and deeper than the room itself" - I read about it all the time in reviews.
This is kind of silly. Estimating a difference in some metric is not the same thing as perceiving relative locations. It is like saying not many can do absolute pitch so they cannot do relative pitch and therefore they are all tone deaf.

Compressed sound stage vs wider sound stage is rather obvious just from relative positioning. A stage in which the drum set extends a large part of the stage vs one in which it is localized proportionate to other equipment is also kind of obvious. Or one in which the location is very difficult to localize. They all obviously have some physical explanations. We just need to find it. Assuming any of these differences are all illusory is kind of silly.
 

solderdude

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audimus

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I think it holds pretty well for the last link in the chain prior to the speakers... Nordost and others would disagree. ;) Also wouldn't that make amps the next most variable?

Amps actually seem to have very few deviations except for some designs like tube amps or intentionally designed amps that deviate from flat to cater to preferences for “warm” sounds or exaggerate mids to sound brighter/punchier for HT, etc. The DSPs with dynamic eq, room corrections (with different target curves from flat), etc can introduce quite large deviations from input.
 

digicidal

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This is kind of silly. Estimating a difference in some metric is not the same thing as perceiving relative locations. It is like saying not many can do absolute pitch so they cannot do relative pitch and therefore they are all tone deaf.

Compressed sound stage vs wider sound stage is rather obvious just from relative positioning. A stage in which the drum set extends a large part of the stage vs one in which it is localized proportionate to other equipment is also kind of obvious. Or one in which the location is very difficult to localize. They all obviously have some physical explanations. We just need to find it. Assuming any of these differences are all illusory is kind of silly.

That's not my point. My point is that simply estimating a physically measurable difference (and precisely measurable at that) without tools - will result in differences between individuals. Some are very good at this estimation, others not - but none will be anywhere close to the precision of a basic tape measure.

When you add in there not being any physical body present creating the sound - but merely an imaginary one constructed entirely within the brain... how likely is that to be more precise or anywhere close for that matter? I'm not "assuming they are illusory" - by definition they are. No one is playing a drum kit of any size in my room... I'm imagining it based on a recording of a drum kit that has passed through many hands and devices on the way. The fact that I can localize what sounds like a drum kit (or what I know to be one) doesn't make it less illusory.
 

Wombat

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I wonder if those sensitive to soundstage can place the isolation booth that the drums are played in. Or which studio/city in which each musician's part was recorded.
 

solderdude

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Aren't drums usually panned broadly and various types of mics are used for each 'component' as well as an overhead being mixed in.
Would imaging of drums not be determined in the mixing console ?
 

Wombat

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Aren't drums usually panned broadly and various types of mics are used for each 'component' as well as an overhead being mixed in.
Would imaging of drums not be determined in the mixing console ?

So it is illusory. How does one re-create another's unreferenced illusion? ;)
 

digicidal

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Amps actually seem to have very few deviations except for some designs like tube amps or intentionally designed amps that deviate from flat to cater to preferences for “warm” sounds or exaggerate mids to sound brighter/punchier for HT, etc. The DSPs with dynamic eq, room corrections (with different target curves from flat), etc can introduce quite large deviations from input.

Totally agree with that... but isn't that the opposite of your previous statement?
 

solderdude

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So it is illusory.

For certain recordings it isn't exactly what one would hear in reality. Soundstage is something the brain reconstructs out of 2 channels (and in the case of speakers also the room) and is an 'illusion' anyway.
We would need holographic recordings and reproduction as well as complete removal of listening room effects, it would be reproduced in, to hear the recorded soundstage (in one take ?)
 

audimus

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Phase and channel separation... is there one I'm missing?

Those are biggies. But I also suspect there are also relative balance in levels and damping of harmonics. An instrument is not a pure sound. A cymbal is a large set of related frequencies from harmonics and resonances all of which help to localize. We don’t perceive different frequencies, we perceive a cymbal and its location whether live or recorded. A perturbation in the balance across these multiple frequencies may also affect localization and hence stage, Some evidence might be from these room effect processors (like hall effect) that resample some of the frequencies and play it back at lower volumes and sometimes with a delay like reverb. They can affect the perception of stage quite a bit which is why the exist, of course.
 

digicidal

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For certain recordings it isn't exactly what one would hear in reality. Soundstage is something the brain reconstructs out of 2 channels (and in the case of speakers also the room) and is an 'illusion' anyway. We would need holographic recordings and reproduction as well as complete removal of rooms it would be reproduced in to hear the recorded soundstage (in one take ?)
Is it even possible for it to be "exactly what one would hear in reality"? Surely that's the audiophile dream... but IMO we're pretty far away from that - and in many cases that's a good thing. I for one am usually more fond of studio recordings than live ones... and engineering (in many but definitely not all cases) is used to make it actually exceed the original from a subjective standpoint. If that weren't the goal, then wouldn't raw sessions be much more desirable to people... even if the levels were horrible?
 

solderdude

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Those are biggies. But I also suspect there are also relative balance in levels and damping of harmonics. An instrument is not a pure sound. A cymbal is a large set of related frequencies from harmonics and resonances all of which help to localize. We don’t perceive different frequencies, we perceive a cymbal and its location whether live or recorded. A perturbation in the balance across these multiple frequencies may also affect localization and hence stage, Some evidence might be from these room effect processors (like hall effect) that resample some of the frequencies and play it back at lower volumes and sometimes with a delay like reverb. They can affect the perception of stage quite a bit which is why the exist, of course.

But what does this have to do with amps and DACs changing soundstages ? They do not change anything about the waveform (well not much) and yet many believe the do.
 

solderdude

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Is it even possible for it to be "exactly what one would hear in reality"? Surely that's the audiophile dream... but IMO we're pretty far away from that - and in many cases that's a good thing. I for one am usually more fond of studio recordings than live ones... and engineering (in many but definitely not all cases) is used to make it actually exceed the original from a subjective standpoint. If that weren't the goal, then wouldn't raw sessions be much more desirable to people... even if the levels were horrible?

I don't care about all of this. When it sounds good and can enjoy the product (distributed recording) then I am happy. Live or studio.

Perfect holographic recordings don't exist and never will either but there are plenty of well made and enjoyable recordings around.
 

audimus

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I wonder if those sensitive to soundstage can place the isolation booth that the drums are played in. Or which studio/city in which each musician's part was recorded.
Or which separate track an instrument was recorded in which is all silly because the process of mixing is to create a sound stage that they would like the listener to hear which may or may not be related to where and how the instruments were recorded. In most studio recordings, there is no relationship between where the instruments are and what the final recording soundstage goal is. We are talking about how audio can change from that intended sound stage post production.
 

digicidal

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I don't care about all of this. When it sounds good and can enjoy the product (distributed recording) then I am happy. Live or studio.

Perfect holographic recordings don't exist and never will either but there are plenty of well made and enjoyable recordings around.
Agreed. But they are all an illusion in the purest sense correct? I'm just confused at the apparent disagreement.
 

audimus

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But what does this have to do with amps and DACs changing soundstages ? They do not change anything about the waveform (well not much) and yet many believe the do.
You are missing the context of the thread I was responding to. This is a problem with this linear forum format.
 
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