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Serious Question: How can Op Amp rolling improve the sound of an already well measuring device? Are that many confused? (Master Thread)

ASR is "generally open to the public" now ... and it has been since its inception. That does not in any way mean that it is "elitist", nor does it require a "relaxed manner" in dealing with trolls.
Trolls are troublemakers, pure and simple. Any entity that deals with trolls in "a relaxed manner" has essentially become an enabler for them. That's not good.

As for "strict ground rules" ... I don't see that the ground rules here at ASR are really very strict. You got in, didn't you? :p
Yes, sir!?
 
@AdamG @BDWoody @Jimbob54

Do we need a :

Serious Question: How can Op Amp rolling improve the sound of an already well measuring device? Are that many confused?​

Catchall thread? Seems this topic is cropping up every few days.

Could this thread be it?
 
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  1. Listener Tolerance and Personal Perception: Every individual’s hearing is different. People perceive sounds in various ways, which means some might be able to hear changes when op-amps or other components are swapped, while others may not. This is a personal experience and perceptual difference.
  2. Limitations of Blind Tests: While blind tests are a common method to measure differences in sound, the conditions of the test (e.g., the environment, the quality of the equipment, the duration of the test) can affect the ability to detect sound differences. Additionally, subtle differences might not be noticeable in a blind test.
  3. High-Quality Equipment and Differences: In systems with high-quality equipment, op-amps might have more noticeable effects. Differences could be more audible in terms of sound details, tonality, dynamic range, and similar factors. These effects might not be as noticeable in lower-quality systems.
  4. System Interactions: Op-amps don't just affect the system on their own; they interact with all the other components. The interaction between components, such as speakers, amplifiers, and DACs, can result in more noticeable differences when combined. Thus, changing just one component might be enough to hear a change.
  5. Ongoing Experience and Long-Term Testing: Sometimes, it’s difficult to identify a change in the short term. However, over long-term use, small differences might accumulate and become more noticeable. For instance, someone who changes the op-amp might feel that the sound becomes more natural, clearer, or more relaxing over time.
In conclusion, understanding and identifying sound differences is highly subjective and depends on personal experience and sensitivity. The conditions of each test can also have a significant impact on the outcome.

(It is a quote.)
It looks like quote from AI which gives it as much validity as any other AI response : not much.

We have a thread for this sort of thing:
 
@AdamG @BDWoody @Jimbob54

Do we need a :

Serious Question: How can Op Amps rolling improve the sound of an already well measuring device? Are that many confused?​

Catchall thread? Seems this topic is cropping up every few days.

Could this thread be it?
Excellent idea. The other one with a similar title plays an essential role in keeping the forum clean and enjoyable.
 
I’m currently in the process of upgrading the op-amps on my Asus Xonar Essence STX
The consensus amongst most qualified engineers on this site, based on understanding how op amps work, and backed up by measurements - is that swapping op amps is a pointless waste of time and money. At best it will make no audible difference, at worst it might destabilise an amp and cause it to oscillate.

People might think they are hearing real differences but this will almost certainly be because they are not testing blind (not typically possible when swapping op amps) and are hearing the effect of perceptive bias. Alternatively they may be hearing the effect of a destabilised amp oscillating. This is never a good thing.

Here is a thread with the test results given of numerous op-amps being swapped in a device. Net result - no audible improvements, some dramatic reductions in performance.


tl:dr - don't waste your effort. :p
 
The consensus amongst most qualified engineers on this site, based on understanding how op amps work, and backed up by measurements - is that swapping op amps is a pointless waste of time and money. At best it will make no audible difference, at worst it might destabilise an amp and cause it to oscillate.

People might think they are hearing real differences but this will almost certainly be because they are not testing blind (not typically possible when swapping op amps) and are hearing the effect of perceptive bias. Alternatively they may be hearing the effect of a destabilised amp oscillating. This is never a good thing.

Here is a thread with the test results given of numerous op-amps being swapped in a device. Net result - no audible improvements, some dramatic reductions in performance.


tl:dr - don't waste your effort. :p

Excellent chart.

1740402766395.png


Where there is an improvement on the original NE5532 - LME49720 combination, it's vanishingly small, and without doubt, completely inaudible.

It's almost as if the engineer that designed the circuit knew what they were doing. :)
 
@AdamG @BDWoody @Jimbob54

Do we need a :

Serious Question: How can Op Amp rolling improve the sound of an already well measuring device? Are that many confused?​

Catchall thread? Seems this topic is cropping up every few days.

Could this thread be it?
Great suggestion. But if we start a new master thread now. When we move all these posts to the new master thread they will sort by date/time stamp and we lose the ownership first post. There is no way to override this functionality. So we are going to just rename this thread using the title you suggested. Then this thread will become the new master repository. Hope this is satisfactory response?
 
Great suggestion. But if we start a new master thread now. When we move all these posts to the new master thread they will sort by date/time stamp and we lose the ownership first post. There is no way to override this functionality. So we are going to just rename this thread using the title you suggested. Then this thread will become the new master repository. Hope this is satisfactory response?
Good idea that's why you get paid the big money.
 
Hope this is satisfactory response?
More or less. I understand the dilemma. It's not the ideal way. Such topics should have a proper OP explaining the purpose and scope.

It might have been better to just create a new topic and simply code this one with a final link to the new topic.
 
More or less. I understand the dilemma. It's not the ideal way. Such topics should have a proper OP explaining the purpose and scope.

It might have been better to just create a new topic and simply code this one with a final link to the new topic.
@AdamG @BDWoody @Jimbob54

Do we need a :

Serious Question: How can Op Amp rolling improve the sound of an already well measuring device? Are that many confused?​

Catchall thread? Seems this topic is cropping up every few days.

Could this thread be it?
Either of you are welcome to create an introduction post text. If you do drop a link to that post and we will do a little behind the scenes magic and make it appear as the first post if this thread. What we will do is copy the new text and find an older post of yours that is old enough to become the 1st post in this thread. We copy that post over as a placeholder. Delete the existing text in this post and paste in the new text you just created. It’s a cheat code thing. But is very doable with your cooperation.

Have already created a new 1st post for @antcollinet to populate with an appropriate introduction for this thread. ;)
 
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It is more humane for the teacher to teach by clearly and clearly explaining to the student why the subject is important and how seriously it should be taken. Have you ever seen a new student being attacked by his teacher? Opinions may differ, but ultimately we share the same world. Maybe our perspectives are different, it shouldn't be difficult to say that the issues are mispronounced. Steve Jobs listened to everyone. evaluated the results and implemented his own ideas. I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to join you. What brought me here was the hobby we all spend time on. Yes, the test is definitive. My brain will be more pleased when I use a less efficient op-amp because it tells me it has better audio performance without testing. Isn't the aim to increase the level of pleasure?
A late and maybe meaningless response here, but it worked for me at the time and may be of interest... I swear I'm trying to assist rather than preach here.

Try to take in as many live unamplified concerts and gigs as you can, to get a 'feel' for the tones, expression (or lack of it sometimes) in the playing and timbres of acoustic instruments. A live jazz group for example (might help too, if you don't care for the genre overmuch, as it's not the music we're talking of here, more the 'sound' as perceived), or a nice central seat in a concert hall, discovering how amorphous a live orchestra can sound, but getting an idea for string tone and so on and how many 'analogue orientated' domestic sound systems over-egg the emotional pudding when it arguably wasn't there so much in the recording.

Yes, I do understand that once these sounds get into a microphone, into the mixing desk and recording devices and so on, then 'processed' in the mix-down and presented for us to consume, the end result can appear squashed and somewhat mangled sometimes. When I was going through this, I used good 1950s jazz recordings that were recorded and presented as simply as possible and carefully mastered to digital with the minimum of 'interference' in the mastering and used speakers that in my smaller room, gave a splendid facsimile of the live event given half a chance (and I don't care how they measure on a Klippel :D).

If you're willing to try this and in any case, enjoy live music in various venues, all this stuff about op-amps, w@nky wires and the entire 'audiophool' side of this godforsaken industry and hobby, will be put into far better perspective and bit by bit, the MUSIC and the listener's connection with it should, with luck, take over :)

In more recent times, I've become far more aware of the psychological aspect of listening to audio equipment, initially using the music as a tool to do this. Our perceptions when the performers aren't there in front of you and ruling the senses, are so multi-faceted, you'd be amazed by the concept, repeatable too, of 'blind level matched tests' where supposed differences completely disappear when the sight and touch is taken away.

Apologies, I don't mean to preach. I did my own limited take on op-amp rolling in my preamp and in this case, the tested difference was noise floor reduction more than anything else. These days and using loudspeakers, my hearing loses low levels at higher 'presence' frequencies, so noise is no longer a question for me and I can play vinyl when I want to and the odd tick and splat apart, I'm not bothered at all.

The MUSIC itself transcends the gear-hobby I finally discovered. I lived for years trying to balance these two things with difficulty as my work was to demonstrate, sell set up and install the gear in client's homes. The pendulum has swung the other way now for me and looking at reports of recent audio shows both sides of the pond (we've just had the Bristol extravaganza), seeing pics of room after room full of overpriced (to me) bling and boxes my wife wouldn't be seen dead living with) actually made me feel nauseus to be honest.


I'd best take me meds and crawl back under my stone now. Why do I still frequent here? You can't take it all away from me after all these decades...
 
Excellent chart.

View attachment 431227

Where there is an improvement on the original NE5532 - LME49720 combination, it's vanishingly small, and without doubt, completely inaudible.

It's almost as if the engineer that designed the circuit knew what they were doing. :)
I would even go one step further, past "vanishingly small": The most significant improvement in that table is 0.0001% in THD+N. That's -120 dB - exactly the stated dynamic range of the line input for the Motu UltraLite MK5 used to capture that data. I'd argue that this difference is within the uncertainty of the measurement and, in conclusion, not a single combination is better than the original one. That is also true for all other combinations listed in that post.

The best you can hope for is identical performance, but in many cases, you're making it worse by switching components.
 
Since this thread has evolved into a hub for OPAMP-related information and debunking myths, I figured I’d share this here as well.
Take note of the THD+N column.

 
Just for fun:


I am so relieved, that I no longer believe all this nonsense. When everything supposedly has an influence, the cables and what they're made of, the brand of capacitors, having your solid state amp on isolation feet, having your speakers perpendicular to the nearest ley line, etc., etc., there are too many variables and it's just impossible to know where to start and what actually counts.

 
Since this thread has evolved into a hub for OPAMP-related information and debunking myths, I figured I’d share this here as well.
Take note of the THD+N column.

I see this more as a comparison chart than an opamp 'shootout'.

For the ultimate opamp 'shootout' see Samuel Groner's site: http://www.nanovolt.ch/resources/ic_opamps/

The above is a little dated now (2009) but still very relevant IMHO.
 
Either of you are welcome to create an introduction post text. If you do drop a link to that post and we will do a little behind the scenes magic and make it appear as the first post if this thread. What we will do is copy the new text and find an older post of yours that is old enough to become the 1st post in this thread. We copy that post over as a placeholder. Delete the existing text in this post and paste in the new text you just created. It’s a cheat code thing. But is very doable with your cooperation.

Have already created a new 1st post for @antcollinet to populate with an appropriate introduction for this thread. ;)
Done - happy to adjust if mods feel it necessary.
 
Being at the beginning of that search is a good place to be: but search with your mind and eyes open.
Learn about the science of psychoacoustics, how our perception changes what we hear.
This site is an invaluable resource, if you listen and want to learn.

Don't waste time on Op Amps, unless you are designing circuits from scratch.
Just be sure that your mind is not so open that the brain falls out.
 
In terms of improvement per cost, money is best spent on improving the things that are most in need of improvement. The same applies to expended time.
@DreaminquE

RE your original post, the above quote is the best advice. As someone who is not an engineer and has just enough technical knowledge to be dangerous, I can share my “ah-ha” moment.

3 observations influenced me to question “generally accepted assumptions” in the audiophile realm:

1. Once I reached a certain level of equipment, I didn’t really notice any differences. I found very $$$ systems didn’t sound better than $ systems, wires made marginal (if only perceived) differences. It was fringe at best even based on my non double blind listening test. (I was trying to find a difference if I’m honest)

2. Speakers and placement made HUGE differences. Simply moving my speakers 12” this way or that made more difference than any gear change ever, and it wasn’t subtle.

3. Room, moving frequently as most young folks do, I noticed the same system would sound like crap in the new apt, or way better in another. (This is 30 years ago now - lol)

And that’s when I learned it’s not the amp, cd player, etc. It’s the room and speakers.

I think what folks are saying is room and speakers are areas in which huge improvements can be had. Op amps, even if they did make a difference, would be equivalent to changing the paint color on an F1 car in terms of performances gain. (Where as the tires are the speakers and the suspension set up is the speaker placement)
 
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Excellent chart.

1740402766395.png
Note that as previously expressed elsewhere, I am very suspicious of any results worse than the TL072/M5218... presumably one of the supply pins had poor contact in the socket (oxidized IC pins could be another factor along those lines) or a bad solder joint. It's not like -90ish dBr worth of THD would be a particularly high bar to clear in this day and age.
 
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