Serious Question: How can Op Amp rolling improve the sound of an already well measuring device? Are that many confused? (Master Thread)

[Ropeburn]

Why is it strange? The ears only pick up sound, the brain does the interpretation.

Do you have a blank spot in your vision where the Macular Hole is (the place where the nerves exit your eyes)? The brain fills it in for you. It doesn’t do a perfect job, but it good enough. Your brain also fills in things your ears pick up. And it’s much easier to fool the ears than the eyes. Emotions pay a much larger role here.

Even if this experience is shaped by an industry full of charlatans trying to gouge ever last penny from the ignorant by lying, cheating and spreading misinformation for decades?

You can also see your nose all the time, it's only the brain actively ignoring it. And now that you're reading this, you can suddenly see your nose again because you're aware.

That's how it works. Our brains are wonderous machines, so wonderous they can wonder about their own wondrousness and think about themselves. Isn't that funny? Interesting anyway.

 

[johny_2000]

Be prepared to be disappointed.

No big deal. I retired that sound card over 8 years ago. But it's still there and functional. I recently acquired a TI OPA1612A with DIP-8 adapters and wanted to put them in there. Plus, I have three or four other op amps on similar adapters for comparison.

 

[kemmler3D]

I doubt it will make any significant impact, but now I have a good ADC for audio measurements, an AES17 notch filter, and REW / MultiTone apps, and we can compare the objective output results of the op amp rolls.

I support this way more than I support opamp rolling and uncontrolled listening as a means of validating output.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Nope, it's not up to me to rebut claims or promote safety or even have an approach.
I became libertarian regards audiophiles many years ago. Folks can do whatever the heck they want with their audio gear. It's their gear, their money.

Dave Reite.

The main thrust of discussions here does not argue with the idea that people can do whatever they want with their audio gear. The main thrust of discussions here centers on people who have been misled by the overwhelming number of disingenuous articles, testimonies and videos that have but one goal: to separate people from their money.

 

[whydan]

You are progressing from novice to journeyman, I am not even a beginner yet This is a large-scale issue and I have time to spare for it. because it's a hobby. As a result, we are all trying to enjoy ourselves more.

hello DreaminquE,

Sorry you didn't get any useful info you seeking for, let me provide something from myself.
You may have to understand three things before rolling OPAs.
1. working voltage: since STX II works as +/-13V as I recalled, the OPA you use shall not over this range.
2. OPA architecture: there are 5 or more type of OPA, bipolar, JFET, CMOS, voltage feedback and current feedback.
since you don't have too much knowledge on spec, please only consider bipolar, JFET and CMOS with uni-gain stable.
3. STX circuit design: there are two level on DAC, one is I/V stage which closed to DAC chip and another one is LPF closed to RCA.
since different stage required different characters from OPA, so you may have to study what kind of character they required.

short version with personal feeling no measurement.
if you are seeking for something transparent sound, please swap to I/V OPA1612*2 and LPF OPA1612 with better measurement.
if you are seeking for bigger sound stange and bright sound, I/V MUSES8920*2 and LPF OPA2132 or OPA2134 with less power.

 

[Doodski]

if you are seeking for something transparent sound, please swap to I/V OPA1612*2 and LPF OPA1612 with better measurement.
if you are seeking for bigger sound stange and bright sound, I/V MUSES8920*2 and LPF OPA2132 or OPA2134 with less power.

How is it that you come up with these generalizations?

 

[johny_2000]

How is it that you come up with these generalizations?

I think this is based on measurements of the highest performing DACs and ADCs using OPA1612 in their I/O circuits.

 

[Doodski]

I think this is based on measurements of the highest performing DACs and ADCs using OPA1612 in their I/O circuits.

View attachment 431136

A pdf clipping does not describe subjective generalizations about sound changes.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

What about forum rules requiring minimal due diligence before posting questions about DAC sound signatures, cables, and OPAMPs? This could be as simple as reading a sticky thread, checking info posts, or watching Amir’s videos.

 

[Doodski]

What about forum rules requiring minimal due diligence before posting questions about DAC sound signatures, cables, and OPAMPs? This could be as simple as reading a sticky thread, checking info posts, or watching Amir’s videos.

That and create a dumping ground thread for them.

 

[voodooless]

What about forum rules requiring minimal due diligence before posting questions about DAC sound signatures, cables, and OPAMPs?

TFTFY!

 

[BeeKay]

Question might be what ASR want to be. More of an almost closed elitist EE club with strict ground rules, or generally open to public. The latter probably requires to deal with newbies and also trolls in a relaxed manner.

 

[Doodski]

Question might be what ASR want to be. More of an almost closed elitist EE club with strict ground rules, or generally open to public. The latter probably requires to deal with newbies and also trolls in a relaxed manner.

More like do we want newbies and subjective thinkers running the show here @ ASR...

 

[solderdude]

hello DreaminquE,

Sorry you didn't get any useful info you seeking for, let me provide something from myself.
You may have to understand three things before rolling OPAs.
1. working voltage: since STX II works as +/-13V as I recalled, the OPA you use shall not over this range.
2. OPA architecture: there are 5 or more type of OPA, bipolar, JFET, CMOS, voltage feedback and current feedback.
since you don't have too much knowledge on spec, please only consider bipolar, JFET and CMOS with uni-gain stable.
3. STX circuit design: there are two level on DAC, one is I/V stage which closed to DAC chip and another one is LPF closed to RCA.
since different stage required different characters from OPA, so you may have to study what kind of character they required.

Yep... facts indeed.. and one can add opamp decoupling (proper capacitors used near the power pins) as well as PCB layout (the way traces run) can be a factor when using ultra fast op-amps in circuits where there used to be less 'fast' op-amps.
There are opamps that are designed to run on max. 6V and these should not be used on circuits with higher rail voltages (see point 1 above).

That said when a manufacturer recommends 'op-amp rolling' and has provisions for it and a list of op-amps that can be used then it usually is perfectly O.K. to swap the listed op-amps. These lists usually also have silly descriptors like the ones below telling you what 'rollers' really want (and expect) to hear and that will happen.
Not because of different technical performance (which arguably will exist but is below audible thresholds) but because of psychological factors.

short version with personal feeling no measurement.
if you are seeking for something transparent sound, please swap to I/V OPA1612*2 and LPF OPA1612 with better measurement.
if you are seeking for bigger sound stage and bright sound, I/V MUSES8920*2 and LPF OPA2132 or OPA2134 with less power.

The above may well be someone's personal opinion. The thing is another person may arrive at a different conclusions (or the same conclusions) for obvious reasons (it being a personal feeling).
Proper AB-testing never verifies such 'feelings' so there's that and when it does the word 'proper' is not in play.

The whole audiophile (and above all audiophool) community is based on these 'feelings' to work its magic and the fact that it isn't observed in well performed blind tests is exactly what feeds the 'mystery that measurements can't explain everything' crowd and makes it magic... and who does not enjoy a good magic show ?

When one wants to save some money ... don't bother unless measurements show huge and detectable improvements like noise floors, bandwidth of high-gain pre-amp circuits.
When one thinks it is 'fun' to tinker with audio and does not mind investing in all kinds of magic or 'higher quality' components just indulge yourself and have fun.
Just don't bother reporting on ASR, go to head-fi or other sites that love that kind of stuff. They will welcome all that kind of input.

 

[Mnyb]

We have to put i very very blunt to op

It's very very very likely that your soundcard is already transparent to all human hearing not only yours ! It's in practice better than any humans faculties to detect such differences in the normal use case.

Implication: if it sound exactly the same after an OPAMP swap your good . If it sounds different for real ( see ABX test protocol ) you screwed up

 

[JeremyFife]

hello DreaminquE,

Sorry you didn't get any useful info you seeking for, let me provide something from myself.
You may have to understand three things before rolling OPAs.
1. working voltage: since STX II works as +/-13V as I recalled, the OPA you use shall not over this range.
2. OPA architecture: there are 5 or more type of OPA, bipolar, JFET, CMOS, voltage feedback and current feedback.
since you don't have too much knowledge on spec, please only consider bipolar, JFET and CMOS with uni-gain stable.
3. STX circuit design: there are two level on DAC, one is I/V stage which closed to DAC chip and another one is LPF closed to RCA.
since different stage required different characters from OPA, so you may have to study what kind of character they required.

short version with personal feeling no measurement.
if you are seeking for something transparent sound, please swap to I/V OPA1612*2 and LPF OPA1612 with better measurement.
if you are seeking for bigger sound stange and bright sound, I/V MUSES8920*2 and LPF OPA2132 or OPA2134 with less power.

Extract "... personal feeling no measurement..."

The technical info may be fine (I can't assess) but the conclusions about effect on sound have no basis ... this goes from useful to useless in a short paragraph

Unless I missed something...

(edited for a typo)

 

[whydan]

Yep... facts indeed.. and one can add opamp decoupling (proper capacitors used near the power pins) as well as PCB layout (the way traces run) can be a factor when using ultra fast op-amps in circuits where there used to be less 'fast' op-amps.
There are opamps that are designed to run on max. 6V and these should not be used on circuits with higher rail voltages (see point 1 above).

That said when a manufacturer recommends 'op-amp rolling' and has provisions for it and a list of op-amps that can be used then it usually is perfectly O.K. to swap the listed op-amps. These lists usually also have silly descriptors like the ones below telling you what 'rollers' really want (and expect) to hear and that will happen.
Not because of different technical performance (which arguably will exist but is below audible thresholds) but because of psychological factors.


The above may well be someone's personal opinion. The thing is another person may arrive at a different conclusions (or the same conclusions) for obvious reasons (it being a personal feeling).
Proper AB-testing never verifies such 'feelings' so there's that and when it does the word 'proper' is not in play.

The whole audiophile (and above all audiophool) community is based on these 'feelings' to work its magic and the fact that it isn't observed in well performed blind tests is exactly what feeds the 'mystery that measurements can't explain everything' crowd and makes it magic... and who does not enjoy a good magic show ?

When one wants to save some money ... don't bother unless measurements show huge and detectable improvements like noise floors, bandwidth of high-gain pre-amp circuits.
When one thinks it is 'fun' to tinker with audio and does not mind investing in all kinds of magic or 'higher quality' components just indulge yourself and have fun.
Just don't bother reporting on ASR, go to head-fi or other sites that love that kind of stuff. They will welcome all that kind of input.

Well you remind me that I recommanded to increase the decoupling caps on OPA from STX to STX III cause I did a test to prove that works.
I did involve something before STX II kick-off. We had a meeting with development team in ASUS HQ to exchange ideas.
And the ultra fast opa you mentioned whom usually came from "voltage feedback" that why I recommand to avoid if someone not familar on specs.

STX/STX II brought a lot of fun to diyers in the past, that doesn't mean STX is good enough/ or transparent enough to hear no different between OPAs.
I did measure the differenece between OPAs but I still do blind test with friends to deside what kind of OPA will use for.

 

[solderdude]

Well you remind me that I recommanded to increase the decoupling caps on OPA from STX to STX III cause I did a test to prove that works.
I did involve something before STX II kick-off. We had a meeting with development team in ASUS HQ to exchange ideas.
And the ultra fast opa you mentioned whom usually came from "voltage feedback" that why I recommand to avoid if someone not familar on specs.

STX/STX II brought a lot of fun to diyers in the past, that doesn't mean STX is good enough/ or transparent enough to hear no different between OPAs.
I did measure the differenece between OPAs but I still do blind test with friends to deside what kind of OPA will use for.

The measured differences are all waaaaaayyy below any audible tresholds.
So ... measured differences does not equal perceived differences.

 

[Gorgonzola]

I've "rolled" a fair number of op amps in my time. Differences were very small (if not imaginary), and IMHO, not likely to have much effect on, say, soundstage.

E.g. I swapped five or six different op amps in the VTV I/O buffers in my VTV Purifi stereo amp. Subjectively I ended up preferring the Sparkos SS3602, my impression being that they beat others on clarity & sweetness on the top end with no loss of detail. Perhaps of note is that the VTV buffer was designed by the Sparkos owner which I didn't know at the time.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Question might be what ASR want to be. More of an almost closed elitist EE club with strict ground rules, or generally open to public. The latter probably requires to deal with newbies and also trolls in a relaxed manner.

ASR is "generally open to the public" now ... and it has been since its inception. That does not in any way mean that it is "elitist", nor does it require a "relaxed manner" in dealing with trolls.
Trolls are troublemakers, pure and simple. Any entity that deals with trolls in "a relaxed manner" has essentially become an enabler for them. That's not good.

As for "strict ground rules" ... I don't see that the ground rules here at ASR are really very strict. You got in, didn't you?