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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

wasnotwasnotwas

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Hi,

As I wrote, coming around here helped a lot.
It is not that I take the "best" device according to measures.
But before I buy a device I check here if that has been tested and if so, that it's not flawed.
If it is flawed, I do not get it, despite it's looks and functionnality.
If it is not, then I buy the device I like and that should give satisfaction.

Because, it has been written by others that, when a given threshold is reached, difference is measurable but barely audible if audible at all.

So, looks can rule out what device will be chosen and which will be left aside :)

Regards.
There is a price though. You can't apply that reasoning to a purchase of, let's say, a DAC then come back and say here that you prefer the sound to another equally well measuring DAC because one is velvety smooth and the other harsh and clinical ;-)
 

PenguinMusic

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There is a price though. You can't apply that reasoning to a purchase of, let's say, a DAC then come back and say here that you prefer the sound to another equally well measuring DAC because one is velvety smooth and the other harsh and clinical ;-)

Hi,

True.
But I am not sure I'd be able to truly hear differences between DAC's.
Regards.

FRED
 

raistlin65

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I'm not sure it's even a mantra. I just think some of the users have always behaved that way in real life and transported it onto social media. These are the equivalent of the pub loudmouth but no landlord to tell them to be quiet. Facebook etc just gave them a bigger pub to bore.

And social media gives them other pub loudmouths to band together with. Which convinces other people that maybe they are saying something important/right.
 
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Mnyb

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Media makes the mistake of “all opinions have equal value” all the time for the drama .

Thier logic demands that we should have debates with two polarised sides of an issue , but if one side is just wrong ? Or when one side is an expert with decades of research and one side is someone with a popular blog and no other qualifications ?
 

Mnyb

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And social media gives them other pub loudmouths to band together with. Which convinces other people that maybe they are saying something important/right.

Yes before internet and social media , typically only qualified professionals could afford platforms to meet up and spread ideas. Like science conferences and special groups that meet irl .
To be fair there probably where some we’ll funded cuckoos back then too. ( imho organised religions are examples of that, but old organisations are more careful and don’t jump on any bandwagon)

But the social media revolution has made it free . There is no friction at all stupidity can multiply infinitely and does .
The idiots finally have a forum . Before they could not organise, but today the threshold to participate is very low. Just get an account on some platform and start copy pasting ignorance all day long .

What about ASR we have the same low threshold, we would never have this discussion otherwise . Or other good well moderated fora . Clear transparent agenda and good moderation is key and that the basic assumptions are actually true !

Actually is it not the case that most ideas humans ever had is wrong , there is just overwhelmingly more bad ideas than good ones . It’s just like some kind of entropy there are more ways to do stuff wrong than there is to do stuff right.

I think the post truth society in the 2000’s we achieved now is a disaster, I think we alll will suffer for it . Science democracy, human rights will all go away and whe are back to the raw power struggle and voilence of older societies .
Just like the fascist and communist ideas of the 1900’s was the disaster of its time.Rigth wing ideas are reused in today’s stupidity, but it’s just a component .

In 1930 someone could be an fascist/communist idiot. in 2020 you are an idiot fascist :) idiot is the dominant factor
 

PenguinMusic

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Yes before internet and social media , typically only qualified professionals could afford platforms to meet up and spread ideas. Like science conferences and special groups that meet irl .
To be fair there probably where some we’ll funded cuckoos back then too. ( imho organised religions are examples of that, but old organisations are more careful and don’t jump on any bandwagon)

But the social media revolution has made it free . There is no friction at all stupidity can multiply infinitely and does .
The idiots finally have a forum . Before they could not organise, but today the threshold to participate is very low. Just get an account on some platform and start copy pasting ignorance all day long .

What about ASR we have the same low threshold, we would never have this discussion otherwise . Or other good well moderated fora . Clear transparent agenda and good moderation is key and that the basic assumptions are actually true !

Actually is it not the case that most ideas humans ever had is wrong , there is just overwhelmingly more bad ideas than good ones . It’s just like some kind of entropy there are more ways to do stuff wrong than there is to do stuff right.

I think the post truth society in the 2000’s we achieved now is a disaster, I think we alll will suffer for it . Science democracy, human rights will all go away and whe are back to the raw power struggle and voilence of older societies .
Just like the fascist and communist ideas of the 1900’s was the disaster of its time.Rigth wing ideas are reused in today’s stupidity, but it’s just a component .

In 1930 someone could be an fascist/communist idiot. in 2020 you are an idiot fascist :) idiot is the dominant factor

Hi,

All in all, even if maybe some statements and conclusions may be somewhat exagerated, I think this is correct.

AND : I find this post hilarious.
Not per se of course.
As I wrote, I do not fundamentaly disagree.

But who could imagine that, asking a question about sound signature of DAC's we'd end up with such posts :)

Now let me tamme you a bit (this is just for fun) :
Do you have scientific proof of what you write ? Or is it purely subjective ?

(Again, just kiddin'... :facepalm:;):mad::eek::oops::rolleyes:)

I think it's beautiful... That is the diversity :)
 

raif71

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Hi,

All in all, even if maybe some statements and conclusions may be somewhat exagerated, I think this is correct.

AND : I find this post hilarious.
Not per se of course.
As I wrote, I do not fundamentaly disagree.

But who could imagine that, asking a question about sound signature of DAC's we'd end up with such posts :)

Now let me tamme you a bit (this is just for fun) :
Do you have scientific proof of what you write ? Or is it purely subjective ?

(Again, just kiddin'... :facepalm:;):mad::eek::oops::rolleyes:)

I think it's beautiful... That is the diversity :)
Yes, looking at the big picture....posts activity and traffic for ASR :)
 

Mnyb

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No prof just some sad ramblings of a middle aged white male :rolleyes: ( me) in case I say something completely wrong please push back a bit and I can do that learning.

( I’ve learn some stuff in the neutral pickup tread for example . That there is some technical merit to MC pickups and not only hype and marketing)
 

PenguinMusic

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No prof just some sad ramblings of a middle aged white male :rolleyes: ( me) in case I say something completely wrong please push back a bit and I can do that learning.

( I’ve learn some stuff in the neutral pickup tread for example . That there is some technical merit to MC pickups and not only hype and marketing)

Hi,

You're free to say everything you'd like. Even personal opinions.
And, was it not said that all opinions are now equal ?

OK... I'm out. Let's not take irony too far ;)
 

PenguinMusic

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In 1930 someone could be an fascist/communist idiot. in 2020 you are an idiot fascist :) idiot is the dominant factor

Reminds me of a joke about two priests asking themwselves if praying and smoking are compatible activities.
As they could not agree, they decided to ask the pope directly.
After two weeks, pope's answer came.
First priest asked : "Am I allowed to smoke while I pray ?" Answer was :" NO !"
Second priest asked : "Am I allowed to pray while I smoke ?" Answer was : "YES, of course".

As a lawyer and a law professor, I tell my students that joke to explain the difference between principal and accessory :) Works like a charm !

Cheers
 

raistlin65

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Yes before internet and social media , typically only qualified professionals could afford platforms to meet up and spread ideas. Like science conferences and special groups that meet irl .
To be fair there probably where some we’ll funded cuckoos back then too. ( imho organised religions are examples of that, but old organisations are more careful and don’t jump on any bandwagon)

But the social media revolution has made it free . There is no friction at all stupidity can multiply infinitely and does .

Not just that, but print publication and video (TV) had editors and producers who acted as gatekeepers. Certainly, there were some print newsletters that some fringe groups used, but they were not widely distributed and accessible to everyone.

The Internet is great because it allows everyone to have a voice that can potentially be heard. Because it allows people to self-organize into groups.

Unfortunately, a large percentage of Internet users have not learned to well evaluate the multitude of opinions they hear, recognize facts, nor filter out propaganda. This is yet another one of those scientific advances that humankind has to evolve to overcome its detriments.
 
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PenguinMusic

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Not just that, but print publication and video (TV) had editors and producers who acted as gatekeepers. Certainly, there were some print newsletters that some fringe groups used, but they were not widely distributed and accessible to everyone.

The Internet is great because it allows everyone to have a voice that can potentially be heard. Because it allows people to self-organize into groups.

Unfortunately, a large percentage of Internet users have not learned to well evaluate the multitude of opinions they have hear, recognize facts, nor filter out propaganda. This is yet another one of those scientific advances that humankind has to evolve to overcome its detriments.

Hi,

This is indeed something that I following quite close with my daughters.
When they come up to me and say "Have you heard this and that... Is that not totally incredible ?"
The first question I ask : "Where did you read that ?"
And I want to make her aware that only POST is common between Washington and Huffington...

Regards.
 

raistlin65

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Hi,

This is indeed something that I following quite close with my daughters.
When they come up to me and say "Have you heard this and that... Is that not totally incredible ?"
The first question I ask : "Where did you read that ?"
And I want to make her aware that only POST is common between Washington and Huffington...

Regards.

Makes sense to me. People seem to have a real problem with differentiating between news articles that are reporting and news opinion pieces.
 

jaminjames

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I'm not going to take this post of yours very seriously. You jumped in the middle of a conversation without showing awareness of context by making an argument about recording and making a big appeal to self-authority.

Perhaps you'd like to join in what has been discussed the last few days instead? The notion that when consumers find differences during sighted listening between two well-designed DACS that measure audibly transparent, that perception bias is a likely cause.

I actually 100% agree with you on your point. I don't have any experience with listeners doing sighted DAC listening tests, but I do have TONS of experience with producers/engineers being fooled by their own perception bias.

A couple years ago a voice chip in my beloved Roland Juno-60 synthesizer started to fail. The Juno-60 was in production from '82-'84, and parts/techs are getting harder to come by. Around the time the voice chip failed, Roland introduced a digital keyboard called the System 8. It models some of Rolands most famous synths, including the Juno-106, which sounds identical to the Juno-60, but had added midi functionality. I ordered the System 8 to compare it to my Juno-60. I spent a lot of time recreating some of my favorite patches on the System 8. And guess what, it was so close to identical, that when I created a blind A/B test for myself, I couldn't tell the difference - and I programmed the patches myself. I was pretty excited about the results. Next time I was with a group of colleagues I was discussing my blind A/B test. All of them said no way, the Juno-60 is a classic sound and they could totally pick out the digital emulation. When I got home that night I uploaded all the test samples in to a Dropbox folder and shared it with everyone who said they could tell the difference. Guess what, they couldn't. No one could even get close to 50% right. But when I brought the System 8 to the studio next time we were all hanging, ALL of them said they could hear a difference and preferred the vintage analog synthesizer over the digital emulation.

The same is true for vintage outboard gear. The most classic compressor is probably the 1176. Every plugin maker makes a copy of it. I've been in the studio with guys who swore they could pick out the real thing from a plugin. And when we blind A/B, they rarely can (though I'll admit I know a couple engineers with great ears who can). That being said, there's a vintage 1176 Blue Stripe for sale on Reverb for $16,500. The same plugin from from a good plugin maker probably costs around $300 dollars, and will give you 96% of the same results.

Anyway. I'm sorry if I jumped in and didn't know the full context. Even though I think that perception bias is a real thing, I do get a bit defensive about certain things, conversion being one of them. When I upgraded from cheap Behringer AD/DA converters to the Apogee Symphony, it was like someone turned on a light. Like I said, there was a depth and width to full mixes with the Apogee Symphony that was not there before. Audio engineering is a game of inches. And I assume the Hi-Fi world is the same. We often spend large sums of money improving our signal chain, and improvements that are tiny. But over time, those tiny improvements add up to noticeable change. When I upgraded my conversion, it was one of the few moments I felt like I'd just jumped ahead a foot, as opposed to an inch or two.
 

Duckeenie

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Unfortunately, a large percentage of Internet users have not learned to well evaluate the multitude of opinions they hear, recognize facts, nor filter out propaganda. This is yet another one of those scientific advances that humankind has to evolve to overcome its detriments.

Not just the internet. Somebody came up to me the other day and tried to defend the "Covid is no big deal" camp by saying that in the UK 50000 people died of Flu last year. That was it... he literally had no other data to qualify his point. I find people do that all the time, just cherry pick data, often to justify their choices.
 

MDAguy

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ok, gonna try to see if we can distill this 115 pages of thread to something like this..


What do the DAC's that suck, or sound badly all have in common? It's safe to assume the PCM code and 1's and 0's are being turned into a sine wave that fits with in the Nyquest theorem ... so what's different?

My theory? Analogue output section, isolation (digital from analogue section), as well as power supply isolation, and other "quality" engineering factors.

But surely there is one or two things that stand out in common with bad vs good sounding DAC's..
 

raistlin65

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Honestly, since I've seen that thread title, only one thing has come to my mind, so I'll finally let it out: why do you deal with people thinking a DAC has a SOUND SIGNATURE?

Because on most forums other than this one, if you try to help an audio newbie choose their first DAC, the subjectivist DAC crowd often jumps in and disagrees with you. Pushing people to spend more money than they need to.

One of my favorites has been when suggesting the Apple USB-C dongle paired with a Heresy or Atom amp as perhaps the best desktop setup you can buy for < $150 when someone is on a budget.

The sound signature DAC crowd will proclaim that a dongle cannot be anywhere as good as a desktop DAC. And when you ask why, they will say because it's a dongle. :facepalm:
 
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