Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[voodooless]

you're beyond human, it's unbelievable how funny you can be

It must be that Australian bottom-up approach…

 

[zajogungster]

It must be that Australian bottom-up approach…

so if a CD player or any DAC sounds the same, i.e. you can't hear the difference, I don't understand why such convinced "measurement specialists" write their contributions at all??? then what is this page for??? then why so much useless nonsense and signs and improvements, solutions??? why then do we educate ourselves, look for devices closer to the truth??? People who have unequivocal truths are stupid!

 

[voodooless]

so if a CD player or any DAC sounds the same, i.e. you can't hear the difference, I don't understand why such convinced "measurement specialists" write their contributions at all??? then what is this page for??? then why so much useless nonsense and signs and improvements, solutions??? why then do we educate ourselves, look for devices closer to the truth??? People who have unequivocal truths are stupid!

Usually when people ask for a DAC upgrade, the answer will be: don’t bother, spend your money on something else. Unless they need specific features, or the current one has a proven design defect.

And otherwise, some people strive to the most perfect reconstruction of the audio signal, regardless of audibility.

Yet others are technology nerds that are fascinated by the design, history and objective performance of DAC’s.

Not sure what any of this has to do with an Australia joke though

 

[zajogungster]

first of all, I'm a musician, I build loudspeakers and produce various techniques, and at the end there is always some result. It is enough to use a better component for the journey and the result is audible, but the measuring devices are limited! I can't explain it and I don't even need to And Australian humor... is turned on its head for the opposite

 

[Mnyb]

Audio is basically full of "gold diggers" or what to call them , one has to wonder about the design skills and objective's of some.
This forum is filled with examples of high end kit filled with basic avoidable design errors.

So we need to measure equipment as a part of a review . its basic hygiene . there are to many expensive shiny boxes with very unremarkable performance out there.

Even skilled people with real knowledge makes interesting decisions if no ones looks at them
Example AVR's the product segment is going backwards in quality and has never been particularly good . Ands is getting worse , they make the basic SQ "good enough" to some arbitrary internal standard fit weak amps and overload with features ?

 

[oleg87]

so if a CD player or any DAC sounds the same, i.e. you can't hear the difference, I don't understand why such convinced "measurement specialists" write their contributions at all??? then what is this page for??? then why so much useless nonsense and signs and improvements, solutions??? why then do we educate ourselves, look for devices closer to the truth??? People who have unequivocal truths are stupid!

I care about measurements to the extent that I want my gear to reproduce the source material accurately. Past that I care about price, feature set, usability, build quality, etc - subjective “sound quality” basically does not enter my decision making at all when it comes to solid state source gear.

 

[zajogungster]

Audio je v podstate plné "zlatokopov" alebo ako ich nazvať, človek sa musí čudovať nad dizajnérskymi schopnosťami a cieľmi niektorých.
Toto fórum je plné príkladov špičkových súprav plných základných chýb v dizajne, ktorým sa dá vyhnúť.

V rámci revízie teda musíme zmerať vybavenie. jeho základná hygiena. existuje veľa drahých lesklých škatúľ s veľmi pozoruhodným výkonom.

Aj šikovní ľudia so skutočnými znalosťami robia zaujímavé rozhodnutia, ak sa na nich nikto nepozerá
Príklad AVR Segment produktov ide smerom dozadu v kvalite a nikdy nebol obzvlášť dobrý. A je to stále horšie, robia základné SQ "dosť dobré", aby nejaký svojvoľný interný štandard pasoval na slabé zosilňovače a bol preťažený funkciami?

I agree with everything, especially in the fact that, in essence, the AVR sucks, that is, the sound! I just don't understand how an educated person can say that no one can hear the difference between individual devices, even if they have the same parameters?! then why are they contributing to these discussions?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Why do so any people believe the earth is flat?
Why do so many people claim the Bible is the truth given the blatant contradictions within?
Why do we try to change people's personal preferences in things audio when we have always known it's a totally futile exercise? And actually completely and totally irrelevant when we face far bigger societal issues?
Why did people vote for Donald Trump? :-D

The battle between "personal truth" and scientific fact (note the lack of apostrophes on the latter) is age-old and sometimes represents the lowest points of human history. Spinoza and Galileo and many others died. Mass killings and pogroms happened.

Passionate about our *opinions* as we are about audio... luckily, I haven't heard of killings or any violence that tragically sometimes is the side effect of passionately held beliefs that turn into sociopathic malfunctions.

People that spend irrational amounts on audio or exotic cars (without ever having the ability to explore performance boundaries) etc etc... they don't hurt anyone except their own bank account, maybe (often it is irrelevant to them). So please let them be.

Personal idiosyncrasies should be respected *unless* someone actively tries to make them into a universal truth everybody should accept. If you don't try to dictate upon me that your way is the absolute truth and manage to eliminate my choices and freedom, I couldn't give less of a s#@t if we find a mutually satisfying agreement.

Our world has become polarized by ritual. Too many people try to dictate each other what their choices should be in life. And then misplace their passion and energy on completely ill-fated evangelism that will never ever change anything.

Let's co-exist as long as we (kind of) respect each others' opinions as long as those don't dictate pain on others.

To me,,, I respect anyone that loves music, and how they do it is absolutely none of my business. Personal truths are just fine as long as they are not being dictated upon other people as "universal truths". Audio at the end of the world is not *that* important. Chill. we have far larger fish to fry, as the saying goes.

I actually *welcome* completely contrarian opinions in my life as long as they are thoughtfully articulated. They make me think and grow at times.

Enjoy the music, anyway you want.

That's one of the more nuanced posts in this god forsaken matter.

I believe in "the total experience" meant the way that if you have something butt-ugly piece of audio equipment with AAA measurements and a nicer looking one with AA+ measurements I think most would pick the AA+.
It's a compromise consisting of budget, dimension, taste differences, sound quality, build quality, performance.

Also reg. measurements I'm having the opinion that unless we do dynamic measurements with varying impedances and phase shifts (complex loading) with varying power draw, we don't see the full picture of e.g. an amplifiers' capability.

So no, measurements are not all that matters when we don't measure everything.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I had one question : why is everyone so ardent about level matching ??

I mean if one says : well you can’t discern a 15.000 dollar DAC from a 500 dollar DAC because the cheap one is playing louder.. then this kinda proves ( if there even is a difference between them in the first place ) that at least the difference - sound-wise - is so small it can be negated by playing the cheap one a bit louder.

Personally my reasoning is as follows : I know amplifiers can sound different… if amplifiers can sound different then why wouldn’t a DAC be able to sound different ? It has an output stage, at least this part can make it sound different.. measuring doesn’t tell the whole story. As an analogy : a feeling, an idea is not the same as our neurons firing. It’s something more, hearing music is something different than a measurement.

But if one can’t hear a difference between DAC’s in a (blind) test then there is no difference, at least not for the person listening. Concluding that there is no difference at all ( objectively speaking ) is a bridge too far. You can’t know what somebody else hears. For example I hear nothing above 16khz. If a DAC would make a difference there.. I wouldn’t even hear it.. somebody else might.

We all hear different afaik. Otherwise we would all by thesame speakers, no ?? And I think we all agree, speakers do not all sound thesame!

Pretty simple : the room has the single biggest impact on sound, then the speakers then the amp and maybe.. the DAC.

The fact that there is so much discussion about is actually almost proof that the differences are mostly negligible.

I don’t think there is one single thread on this forum about speakers sounding exactly alike..

There are some threads about all amps sounding thesame though. I don’t agree.

Lastly : let’s not forget that peoples who are discussing these kind of topics are mostly not poor. Companies who are into hifi know this and ofcourse they ll try to take advantage…

Make a nice shiny box, put in good parts and most importantly give a very high sticker price and in hifi land you ll sell many boxes and make lots of money, much more than selling low priced gear with ( almost ) same performance.. Reason being : for many if the price is not high enough it can’t be good… the profit/actual cost of a 15.000 dollar DAC is roughly : 2500 for the bespoke case and 500 for the parts, 7000 for the manufacturer, 5000 for the dealer.

For a 500 dollar DAC : 50 for the plastic case, 150 for parts ( omitting inputs compared to more expensive one ) 300 for the manufacturer , nothing for dealer ( sold directly online )

These numbers are just meant to show that the cost of high end gear is found in other things than the signal path.

Simply put: Research shows human hearing is physically at its best around the mid range of frequencies (speech etc, see Fletcher-Munson). Therefore louder let’s you hear a wider frequency band and is therefore perceived better. And as healthy people can distinguish between loudness differences smaller than ca 1dB one can not use an SPL meter as they are simply not accurate enough (plenty of online tests to check your personal abilities).

It is the oldest trick in the book of so called high end dealers to turn up the volume of the more expensive device so they can sell it to you.

So if you want to scientifically and correctly test differences in sound one has to exclude the influence of differences in loudness by level matching.

Non level matched tests pick up the perception of loudness differences and not differences in sound fidelity and are therefore invalid for that purpose.

(Amir has a video on it if you are interested).

 

[zajogungster]

That's one of the more nuanced posts in this god forsaken matter.

I believe in "the total experience" meant the way that if you have something butt-ugly piece of audio equipment with AAA measurements and a nicer looking one with AA+ measurements I think most would pick the AA+.
It's a compromise consisting of budget, dimension, taste differences, sound quality, build quality, performance.

Also reg. measurements I'm having the opinion that unless we do dynamic measurements with varying impedances and phase shifts (complex loading) with varying power draw, we don't see the full picture of e.g. an amplifiers' capability.

So no, measurements are not all that matters when we don't measure everything.

I agree and thank you that someone clarified it in this way!

 

[pma]

I agree with everything, especially in the fact that, in essence, the AVR sucks, that is, the sound! I just don't understand how an educated person can say that no one can hear the difference between individual devices, even if they have the same parameters?! then why are they contributing to these discussions?

That Slovak language in your post #4304 is wonderful .

 

[Mnyb]

I agree with everything, especially in the fact that, in essence, the AVR sucks, that is, the sound! I just don't understand how an educated person can say that no one can hear the difference between individual devices, even if they have the same parameters?! then why are they contributing to these discussions?

AVR's are an interesting mixed bag . the amps are very poor the DAC's not so good , the processing is often very good and helps with the acoustics and sub integration to an extent that it blows away the other issues .

Hence why some uses an AVR as a processors and uses external amps and call that a working solution, it is . But products need to be better. Denon had half decent DAC quality in the previous generation of AVR's probably good enough but skirting very close to the limits ? now they degraded their products of lately.

This presents a dilemma . I think room EQ and proper sub integration is essential good DAC performance of it's own is quite meaningless when your room trashes everything anyway ?

 

[Mnyb]

That Slovak language in your post #4304 is wonderful .

Fascinating that the site translates my English to slovak when quoted Maybe i should use translation functions and write in Swedish instead of hacking away with bad English ?

 

[zajogungster]

Tá slovenčina v tvojom príspevku #4304 je úžasná

Fascinujúce, že stránka prekladá moju angličtinu do slovenčiny, keď je citovaná Možno by som mal použiť prekladateľské funkcie a písať po švédsky, namiesto toho, aby som sa vykašľal na zlú angličtinu?

Slovenčina je budúcnosť

 

[solderdude]

I had one question : why is everyone so ardent about level matching ??

To level the playing field when comparing.

Amplitude matters, so does not knowing what you are listening to and statistics.
Hearing a difference 'correctly' with only 3 attempts and then deciding this was evidence enough is simply not enough. Flipping a coin 3 times in a row also has a good chance of being correct quite a few times.

So... it is not only level matching but also the other controls. Level matching (electronics) is not even the most difficult thing to do, so why not remove that variable.

Also.... comparing electronics and speakers/headphones are two very different things.
Good luck level matching speakers in a room or 2 different headphones.

 

[Robbo99999]

Why do so any people believe the earth is flat?
Why do so many people claim the Bible is the truth given the blatant contradictions within?
Why do we try to change people's personal preferences in things audio when we have always known it's a totally futile exercise? And actually completely and totally irrelevant when we face far bigger societal issues?
Why did people vote for Donald Trump? :-D

The battle between "personal truth" and scientific fact (note the lack of apostrophes on the latter) is age-old and sometimes represents the lowest points of human history. Spinoza and Galileo and many others died. Mass killings and pogroms happened.

Passionate about our *opinions* as we are about audio... luckily, I haven't heard of killings or any violence that tragically sometimes is the side effect of passionately held beliefs that turn into sociopathic malfunctions.

People that spend irrational amounts on audio or exotic cars (without ever having the ability to explore performance boundaries) etc etc... they don't hurt anyone except their own bank account, maybe (often it is irrelevant to them). So please let them be.

Personal idiosyncrasies should be respected *unless* someone actively tries to make them into a universal truth everybody should accept. If you don't try to dictate upon me that your way is the absolute truth and manage to eliminate my choices and freedom, I couldn't give less of a s#@t if we find a mutually satisfying agreement.

Our world has become polarized by ritual. Too many people try to dictate each other what their choices should be in life. And then misplace their passion and energy on completely ill-fated evangelism that will never ever change anything.

Let's co-exist as long as we (kind of) respect each others' opinions as long as those don't dictate pain on others.

To me,,, I respect anyone that loves music, and how they do it is absolutely none of my business. Personal truths are just fine as long as they are not being dictated upon other people as "universal truths". Audio at the end of the world is not *that* important. Chill. we have far larger fish to fry, as the saying goes.

I actually *welcome* completely contrarian opinions in my life as long as they are thoughtfully articulated. They make me think and grow at times.

Enjoy the music, anyway you want.

While this is true on a general level, here on ASR you don't want people like Archon spreading misinformation and creating circular arguments whilst not really listening and not really engaging in the replies he's given, so that's why he rightly got some friction, but at a point such a person's exchange has to be ignored or dealt with when it really starts becoming circular, so BDWoody dealt with it, the correct thing to do as it was really going around in circles. You're right that Archon (& similars) can ulitimately just let be and are entitled to have whatever incorrectly constructed views that they like, and no one's gonna be calling out a hitman on him, but in terms of what ASR is about he was right to have gotten some friction.

 

[Mnyb]

While this is true on a general level, here on ASR you don't want people like Archon spreading misinformation and creating circular arguments whilst not really listening and not really engaging in the replies he's given, so that's why he rightly got some friction, but at a point such a person's exchange has to be ignored or dealt with when it really starts becoming circular, so BDWoody dealt with it, the correct thing to do as it was really going around in circles. You're right that Archon (& similars) can ulitimately just let be and are entitled to have whatever incorrectly constructed views that they like, and no one's gonna be calling out a hitman on him, but in terms of what ASR is about he was right to have gotten some friction.

That's the mystery , why are so many signing up only to run these kind of arguments or in otherwise wrec havoc ? when they don't actually believe in anything said here at ASR ?
Even more mysteries are people signing up to have a tantrum in one specific tread about a product they adore and then never heard of again ?

I think a very large part of the membership are the people I wanted to get away from when being on the usual audio forums ? how can ASR have so many members that does not get the "core ethos" of scientific investigation and jumps into every tread with bizarre arguments ?

I want to be here as this is a place for sane discourse about audio , but no they have to come here to ? :/

 

[Deleted member 48726]

That's the mystery , why are so many signing up only to run these kind of arguments or in otherwise wrec havoc ? when they don't actually believe in anything said here at ASR ?
Even more mysteries are people signing up to have a tantrum in one specific tread about a product they adore and then never heard of again ?

I think a very large part of the membership are the people I wanted to get away from when being on the usual audio forums ? how can ASR have so many members that does not get the "core ethos" of scientific investigation and jumps into every tread with bizarre arguments ?

I want to be here as this is a place for sane discourse about audio , but no they have to come here to ? :/

If they don't come in, how are they supposed to be "converted"?
I think some are here because they are in doubt about something. They may agree or be convinced about some subjects but not all. Either it takes some more time or it may never happen.
Don't focus on the negative.

 

[Robbo99999]

That's the mystery , why are so many signing up only to run these kind of arguments or in otherwise wrec havoc ? when they don't actually believe in anything said here at ASR ?
Even more mysteries are people signing up to have a tantrum in one specific tread about a product they adore and then never heard of again ?

I think a very large part of the membership are the people I wanted to get away from when being on the usual audio forums ? how can ASR have so many members that does not get the "core ethos" of scientific investigation and jumps into every tread with bizarre arguments ?

I want to be here as this is a place for sane discourse about audio , but no they have to come here to ? :/

Ha! Well, it could be a threat to some people's long held beliefs in their audio and what they've invested in re large and/or many expensive purchases which could be threatened to be given a right old panning here on ASR - it's hard to be proven wrong especially when you've invested so much in monetary and belief. Same goes for if you own a product and think it's fantastic, then if gets reviewed here on ASR and doesn't measure well then it can be an affront - hence the loyalty people have to their gear and why they might just post in one headphone review thread never to be seen again. Some of those people would do well to buy some good measuring speakers and headphones (along with EQ) and then test them vs their previously loved gear to see if they're missing anything - they could end up with a better audio experience ultimately.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Sometimes people are just wrong. And damn certain of what they are wrong about. We have a jump in these this month. They clearly appear to come here to dispute the wrong things they believe, and to cause friction because they don't agree. Now maybe there are mistakes about who is wanting to debate in good faith and who is just here to gum up the works. Some of these people are here on ASR to gum up the works.

So you get to a point where Brandolini's law comes into a effect and this is where someone just wishing to gum up the works or cause trouble can be effective if left to spew out bad information.

Brandolini’s law (also called the bullshit asymmetry principle), is the adage that “the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it”. This denotes that it’s generally much easier to say something without concern for things such as the truth, evidence, or logic, than it is to prove that what was said is wrong.

You can read about it in depth here:

Brandolini’s Law: The Bullshit Asymmetry Principle – Effectiviology

effectiviology.com

It is particularly disruptive when someone Gish Gallops as a way to stay ahead of any counter arguments or corrections. Something a couple people have definitely been doing this past week.

Similarly, it can be beneficial when it comes to understanding how to respond to large amounts of bullshit, as in the case of responding to a Gish gallop, which is a rhetorical technique that involves overwhelming your opponent with weak many arguments. Specifically, since Gish gallops tend to involve a lot of bullshit, Brandolini’s law can help you realize that rather than refuting every piece of bullshit that you encounter, it might be more effective to focus only on its key points, or on reminding the Gish galloper that they’re the ones with an initial burden of proof when it comes to supporting their argument.