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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE, IMAGING, and MIDRANGE of a DAC? I actually don't know what to say to people to not be rude. If you try explaining that a DAC isn't something that actually changes the sound, they accuse you of having "a hard-on for measurements", as if it were the measurements themselves that tell you that DACs don't have a sound. What they don't get though, is that even if we had no equipment to measure distortion or other aspects of sound, still would not have a sound to them. So you try explaining by telling them that when you listen to different DACs using the same headphone and amp, that you cannot tell the difference. "You can't tell the difference between DACS????" "There must be something wrong with your system. You don't have revealing enough upstream and downstream equipment. Either that you haven't "learned" to tell the difference between them." Then you explain that in double-blind studies people are not able to tell the difference between Dacs any better than someone picking random answers. And their response is that the differences are "subtle", and them and other audiophiles who have spent time practicing and learning how to listen properly can hear a difference. "That doesn't sound like a very good way of testing that. Just taking a random group of people who know nothing about audio equipment and asking them to try to find the difference between DACs? Those people haven't yet learned to know the difference!" Then you ask them how they know that they actually hear the difference and it isn't just placebo. ETC.

The problem is that this isn't even an uncommon view. I would say that people who understand there isn't a difference between decently engineered dac (except perhaps small amounts of distortion in the lower end ones that may or may not be audible). Most audiophiles think there is at least a subtle difference between DACS and don't realize that saying the DACS sound different is like saying the portion of a DVD player that takes the 0s and 1s that are read off the disk and converts them into video can make the same DVD "look different" on the same exact TV. It's incredible, but if you want to be friends with audiophiles or even post on an audiophile board, you either have to pretend you agree or somehow remain silent when people talk about this stuff. Like "ohh have you heard the utopias in the chord hugo?? it really makes the mids stand out, but its a warmer dac". The main problem is actually that there is a confusion. They think that we mean that what makes a DAC "objectively good" is a TRANSPARENT DAC, and that we first define a good dac as a transparent DAC and then say that the measurements prove that the DAC is transparent, and therefore it is the better DAC. They think there are other dacs that are not transparent, but rather, color the sound in a good way, and therefore "measure worse" but sound better. This is nothing but a huge confusion. If that were how dacs worked, then I would actually agree with them. What matters most is how something sounds. However that is literally not what DACS do. DACs by nature do not have a sound signature. Saying a DAC has a sound signature is like saying a cable has a sound signature (well I guess if it is a really ****** dac it can have a sound signature of "fuzzy" or whatever dac distortion is, but you get the picture). Problem is, I don't think there will ever be an easy way to educate audiophiles about this, and so the only remedy will be like who the hell knows?


You’re spot on.
Amplifiers, Loudspeakers, TVs and everything in between sound and output the same picture quality.
After all, they are all fed from the same source, don’t they?
50 or 60Hz is the same, right?
I would have quote Einstein but you won’t get it.
 
I didn't see anything like a sweep in the test signals drop-down, I think I may need to switch some other setting, I saw some measurement mode(?) somewhere that was preset to "Spectrum" and could be set to "Sweeps". I'll look into it next time. I'm usually on my Linux and I need to boot into Win10 to do all this.


I mean sure, but I've been looking to upgrade my portable DAC with something I can keep for years without worry or FOMO, so for that purpose I'd really like to see FRs with sub 0.1 dB ripples if possible within my budget. Other than that, my direct complaints about specific devices have been only at (what look so far to be) 0.4-0.8 dB ripples, after having heard weak treble in A/B comparisons. I'm not going around declaring devices with 0.1-0.2 dB ripples or rolloff to be a scam or not worth buying.
Tell you what .... the fun part of Paul's software is that you can null an original music file to the reproduced file and even listen to the null.
When you want to prove it sounds different (do the same with other DACs you have) using music this is the best method to prove that.
Tried any of the other 7 available filters in the KA17 which should have different passband ripples ?

Also use REW (also runs fine on Linux). There you can easily see sub 0.1dB variations. Now you are faffing about in ways the software is not meant to be used.
 
No, you don't get it. You are replying to a 5 year old post, and consensus after more than 500 pages of discussion is that your 6400 euro HoloAudio May DAC KTE DAC does not sound any better than a 100 euro Topping DAC.

Funny statement as you’re reading my reply to this 5 years old statement
 
I didn't see anything like a sweep in the test signals drop-down, I think I may need to switch some other setting, I saw some measurement mode(?) somewhere that was preset to "Spectrum" and could be set to "Sweeps". I'll look into it next time. I'm usually on my Linux and I need to boot into Win10 to do all this.
With Multitone open, look under the drop down for Measure, then Test Signal, and down in that long list you'll find Frequency sweep. You can even restrict the range of the sweep if you like. You also can limit the range over which multi tones are distributed. Finally, you keep using very high bin FFTs, but for what you are doing that really isn't helpful. 65,536 or twice that is plenty. And as suggested if you use Linux REW will work. You can do a stepped sine as well as a sweep.
 
Amplifiers, Loudspeakers, TVs and everything in between sound and output the same picture quality.

As long as the differences between them have a magnitude lower than what human senses can be expected to detect, yes.

When looking at the performance of well designed DACs in the light of what know about the limitations of human hearing, it's very resonable to conclude that this particular component have long since reached a point of maturity, where audible differences can only occure as the result of either massive engineering incompetence or huge corners being cut.

A bottle of pure water with a nanogram of salt dissolved in it might be "relatively salty" in a technical sense, but as far as your taste buds are concerned, it's water and nothing else.
 
Wow, now you guys are at 10,500 posts and still haven't "solved this problem". :facepalm:
Which problem:

1 - Do transparent DACs sound the same? - Solved decades ago, and answered multiple times in the first few pages.

2 - The one of newbies coming in and needing it explained all over and over again? No and never will be. Newbies are one of the world's few inexhaustible resources.


Oh, and... err.... :facepalm:... right back atchja. :p
 
Which problem:

1 - Do transparent DACs sound the same? - Solved decades ago, and answered multiple times in the first few pages.

2 - The one of newbies coming in and needing it explained all over and over again? No and never will be. Newbies are one of the world's few inexhaustible resources.


Oh, and... err.... :facepalm:... right back atchja. :p
Patience should be another inexhaustible resource—otherwise, how would forums like this ever grow for us newbies?
Funny you're replying to this as I thought you are over it by now.
 
I think that's enough of this back and forth. move the discussion on please .

@Mr. Widget @antcollinet @ObiWanKenobi

Adding to a thread by discussing the value of adding to a thread adds no value to anyone.
 
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Patience should be another inexhaustible resource—otherwise, how would forums like this ever grow for us newbies?
Funny you're replying to this as I thought you are over it by now.
I don't think patience has ever been inexhaustible for anyone. However, there are 10,500 posts of mostly patience in this thread alone, of which my post #10,499, and my other posts in this thread are just a few tiny examples. So far patience has (as a rule) kept up with the flow of newbies, though it does tend to wear thin with the newbies who show themselves to be just common or garden trolls.
 
I know a lot of people are saying R2R isn't as good for X or Y reason, and on paper yes, these are cold, hard facts. BUT isn't the real test a person's ears? If two DACs are close in specs on paper, they can still sound way different. On that note, until my ears hear it, I'll never know how good (or bad) it is for me. Again, everyone has their own tastes. And to be honest, Topping tends to put out good quality stuff. So, it may sound, X, Y, or Z, but maybe some will like that. And yes, others will not. We can debate numbers and opinions till we are blue in the face, but until you hear it, it's all subjective. Kinda like not doing proper A/B tests when comparing DACs.....right?
 
I know a lot of people are saying R2R isn't as good for X or Y reason, and on paper yes, these are cold, hard facts. BUT isn't the real test a person's ears? If two DACs are close in specs on paper, they can still sound way different. On that note, until my ears hear it, I'll never know how good (or bad) it is for me. Again, everyone has their own tastes. And to be honest, Topping tends to put out good quality stuff. So, it may sound, X, Y, or Z, but maybe some will like that. And yes, others will not. We can debate numbers and opinions till we are blue in the face, but until you hear it, it's all subjective. Kinda like not doing proper A/B tests when comparing DACs.....right?
If they are different, you can measure it. Usually the methodology of the measurements are debated not the idea that the difference can’t be measured.

But the pretty thing about this development initially is that Topping could’ve been the best performing, reasonably priced R2R DAC option with good SINAD exceeding that of May.

This would have ended most of the debates, as you can now buy any type of DAC you’d like with good measurements and price. But alas it’s not to be.
 
I know a lot of people are saying R2R isn't as good for X or Y reason, and on paper yes, these are cold, hard facts. BUT isn't the real test a person's ears? If two DACs are close in specs on paper, they can still sound way different. On that note, until my ears hear it, I'll never know how good (or bad) it is for me. Again, everyone has their own tastes. And to be honest, Topping tends to put out good quality stuff. So, it may sound, X, Y, or Z, but maybe some will like that. And yes, others will not. We can debate numbers and opinions till we are blue in the face, but until you hear it, it's all subjective. Kinda like not doing proper A/B tests when comparing DACs.....right?
No, your ears aren’t as discriminating as measurements for a DAC.
It’s not subjective - it’s science and engineering
 
No, your ears aren’t as discriminating as measurements for a DAC.
It’s not subjective - it’s science and engineering
I'm sorry, but it IS subjective. I can like the sound of a DAC that someone else doesn't like. That is a fact. We can certainly agree to disagree. On paper, a BMW Z4 is faster and handles better than a Mazda Miata. BUT most reviews agree, the Miata is more fun to drive. :)
 
I'm sorry, but it IS subjective. I can like the sound of a DAC that someone else doesn't like. That is a fact. We can certainly agree to disagree. On paper, a BMW Z4 is faster and handles better than a Mazda Miata. BUT most reviews agree, the Miata is more fun to drive. :)
The objective thing is if it does actually sound different or if your brain is tricking you because of the lack of blind-testing letting biases come into play. You can like the sound of a dac more than another but there might very well not be any audible difference at all.
 
I'm sorry, but it IS subjective. I can like the sound of a DAC that someone else doesn't like. That is a fact. We can certainly agree to disagree. On paper, a BMW Z4 is faster and handles better than a Mazda Miata. BUT most reviews agree, the Miata is more fun to drive. :)
The car analogy doesn’t work. We understand how to measure a DAC. There isn’t some mystical property that eludes our understanding. Now, if you like an audibly distorted DAC, that’s fine. But you don’t hear a difference in audibly transparent DACs
You’ve been here at ASR for a day or two, I suggest you spend some time learning the science of audio reproduction and audibility.
 
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