Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[solderdude]

With 2 pin the issue is not ground loops but leakage currents. (3 pin can also have leakage currents b.t.w.)

Every mains powered device has a little leakage current (that's what you can feel with the finger rubbing trick), especially the SMPS types have this simply to comply to FCC rules.

2 pin or 3-pin mains only has to do with electric safety, nothing with sound quality.
Ground loops usually aren't a problem but can be in certain cases.
This is not about 'degraded sound quality' but rather unwanted hum/noises/buzzing etc.

 

[Miguelón]

With 2 pin the issue is not ground loops but leakage currents. (3 pin can also have leakage currents b.t.w.)

Every mains powered device has a little leakage current (that's what you can feel with the finger rubbing trick), especially the SMPS types have this simply to comply to FCC rules.

2 pin or 3-pin mains only has to do with electric safety, nothing with sound quality.
Ground loops usually aren't a problem but can be in certain cases.
This is not about 'degraded sound quality' but rather unwanted hum/noises/buzzing etc.

So if there’s a ground loop then it would be quite evident, not just a little difference.

I think I don’t have ground loops so, but simply some reflections from the glasses behind the speakers: the WiiM has more voltage output than the Ifi Zen, so I suppose that when I change the output some “bumps” on the mid highs are becoming more noisy.

I will correct them with the PEQ and think they will be fixed.

 

[Miguelón]

Now convinced that the attenuator cannot introduce audible nonlienarities, I cannot think on another non psychological reasons about slight differences between transparent DACs.

Supposing I have such a sensitive ear capable of identifying minor harmonic changes between DACs, since now I’m using EQ room corrections, they will be integrated in the really audible equalization that will affect logically the harmonics in the audible region.

This days I’m swinging from one DAC to another and when I return from the job I cannot remembered which one was plugged, and totally unable to guess it by listening.

Not a blind test, but it suggests strongly the psychological hypothesis

POST EDITING: what I’m able to distinguish are the filters, and finally think is the only aspect that answers some tiny differences on trebles: the WiiM Ultra uses by default a linear phase fast roll-off that harsh on 15-18.000 Hz (it produces a little bump detectable by its own room correction). Now selecting the minimum phase slow roll-off the highs sound less aggressive to me.

Was it suggested in another posts on the thread? I remember something about the subject

 

[Tilata]

Skip to the end for the question.

Dear fellow Mojo2 user,

I do not mean to upset any veteran or new members just want to share my couple of years' journey until I got to point when I felt that I had to buy a Mojo2. Having been lived in the UK for 14 years I have had all sorts of experience with the British way of thinking, looking at life, approach to invention and change management. Most importantly breaking away from what others think is normal is highly entertaining and - the way they do it - is still unique today. For the superficial observer it looks like people just dont give a mf* about others and do what they feel they should be doing. Very often it obviously does not lead to any good, other than a cup of tea and long (action-free) discussion. Chord's Mojo2 - at least for me - is an exception. It is faithfully British: fairly overpriced (probably double than it is worth), looks a bit ugly for a reason (unsure and undecided if function or design should come first - democracy won = neither fully achieved) and built for life (feels good in the hand or on the desk). If the Mojo2 would be a car, it would a Golf GTI (and would be German): it gives you so much more than it looks at first sight. It has a soul. It makes you happy and smile.
Do you remember the Golf advert? (Maybe not, as it was made for at UK audience.)

- Madam we say Golf or similar. - It's nothing like a Golf.
- It's not a golf, but like a Golf, but a hatchback.
- Just handles like a Golf.
- Double overhead cam - Oh yeah like a Golf.
- Listen carefully ... sounds just like a Golf.
Why drive something like a Golf when you can drive a Golf?

My short (long) history and personal experience with DAC's:
Cambridge audio DacMagic 100 - this is my backup desktop DAC, love it. Paired with a small Sabaj PHA3 tube headphone amp.
FiiO K3 (old) - great DAC, son using it mainly for gaming
iFi Zen DAC v2 - sold
FiiO KA2 - kept, great balanced USB-C DAC, using it with Letshuoer S12 planar
HiBy FD1 - very quick return
iBasso DC05 - great DAC, sold, bothersome volume control even on UAP
FiiO Jade KA1 - quick return
iFi Hip DAC v2 - powerful bass, backup in the drawer, new non-MQA firmware 7.4b is not bad at all
Topping E30 II - sold, great DAC
Topping E50 - great dac, solid, consistent performance (Liked more than either of the E70's) - sold
Topping E70 (ESS9028Pro) - underwhelming - sold
Topping E70 velvet (AK4499EX) - too soft and characterless
Gustard X18 - great DAC, "all you need"/"end game" DAC for most of us - sold as wanted to keep only one desktop (chose the D300)
SABAJ A10d - returned, great, but inconsistent sound, awkward UI
Cayin RU6 - good warm sound, - sold
Cayin N3 Pro - unique sound, versatile travel companion - sold
FiiO Q3 (MQA) - quick return
SMSL DO100 - excellent DAC, just too analytical for my 50+ years ears (great for your old techno/house tracks), great soundstage
SMSL PO100 Pro - returned
SMSL M500 MK III - returned, underwhelming
SMSL C100 - returned, not bad for the price, good for classical music
SMSL D300 (firmware V 1.0) - Superb DAC, kept as my main desktop DAC, warm, full of character and zero fatigue (small click when switching sampling rate - takes time to get used to). Paired with Schiit Magnius headphone amp.
Mojo2 - see above - will keep (...?)
For testing I mainly used the Schiit Magnius headphone amp with balanced and unbalanced headphones:
Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro - unbalanced and modified balanced
Sony MDR-1AM2 - unbalanced and balanced
Monoprice Monolith 1060c (internal foam replaced with wool) - balanced and unbalanced
Hifiman Edition XS - balanced and unbalanced
Koss Porta Pro
Letshuoer S12 planar - balanced
Final A4000
FiiO FD1

So my question is what would you like to compare your Mojo2 to (or Mojo2-2) and why?
Share your journey and listening experience.

 

[Svend P]

All DAC's sound the same.

You should read this thread

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And then try a blind test next time.

 

[ahofer]

Good news! They've figured it out at Audiogon:

Audiogon Discussion Forum

This plethora of DAC’s phenomenon was such a mystery to me for 20 years. How can measurements be so incredible, yet many continue to prefer DACs that...

forum.audiogon.com

 

[Purité Audio]

They are so smart on Audiogon.
Keith

 

[Frank Dernie]

Now convinced that the attenuator cannot introduce audible nonlienarities, I cannot think on another non psychological reasons about slight differences between transparent DACs.

Supposing I have such a sensitive ear capable of identifying minor harmonic changes between DACs, since now I’m using EQ room corrections, they will be integrated in the really audible equalization that will affect logically the harmonics in the audible region.

This days I’m swinging from one DAC to another and when I return from the job I cannot remembered which one was plugged, and totally unable to guess it by listening.

Not a blind test, but it suggests strongly the psychological hypothesis

POST EDITING: what I’m able to distinguish are the filters, and finally think is the only aspect that answers some tiny differences on trebles: the WiiM Ultra uses by default a linear phase fast roll-off that harsh on 15-18.000 Hz (it produces a little bump detectable by its own room correction). Now selecting the minimum phase slow roll-off the highs sound less aggressive to me.

Was it suggested in another posts on the thread? I remember something about the subject

Humans are susceptible to the placebo effect.

IMO it is the only scientific explanation why people report differences in sound between electronic components which are shown not to change the electrical signal (amplitude frequency and phase, that is all there is) more than our ears can detect.
It is a well researched and real effect for those people susceptible to it.

 

[DSJR]

Skip to the end for the question.

Dear fellow Mojo2 user,

I do not mean to upset any veteran or new members just want to share my couple of years' journey until I got to point when I felt that I had to buy a Mojo2. Having been lived in the UK for 14 years I have had all sorts of experience with the British way of thinking, looking at life, approach to invention and change management. Most importantly breaking away from what others think is normal is highly entertaining and - the way they do it - is still unique today. For the superficial observer it looks like people just dont give a mf* about others and do what they feel they should be doing. Very often it obviously does not lead to any good, other than a cup of tea and long (action-free) discussion. Chord's Mojo2 - at least for me - is an exception. It is faithfully British: fairly overpriced (probably double than it is worth), looks a bit ugly for a reason (unsure and undecided if function or design should come first - democracy won = neither fully achieved) and built for life (feels good in the hand or on the desk). If the Mojo2 would be a car, it would a Golf GTI (and would be German): it gives you so much more than it looks at first sight. It has a soul. It makes you happy and smile.
Do you remember the Golf advert? (Maybe not, as it was made for at UK audience.)

- Madam we say Golf or similar. - It's nothing like a Golf.
- It's not a golf, but like a Golf, but a hatchback.
- Just handles like a Golf.
- Double overhead cam - Oh yeah like a Golf.
- Listen carefully ... sounds just like a Golf.
Why drive something like a Golf when you can drive a Golf?

My short (long) history and personal experience with DAC's:
Cambridge audio DacMagic 100 - this is my backup desktop DAC, love it. Paired with a small Sabaj PHA3 tube headphone amp.
FiiO K3 (old) - great DAC, son using it mainly for gaming
iFi Zen DAC v2 - sold
FiiO KA2 - kept, great balanced USB-C DAC, using it with Letshuoer S12 planar
HiBy FD1 - very quick return
iBasso DC05 - great DAC, sold, bothersome volume control even on UAP
FiiO Jade KA1 - quick return
iFi Hip DAC v2 - powerful bass, backup in the drawer, new non-MQA firmware 7.4b is not bad at all
Topping E30 II - sold, great DAC
Topping E50 - great dac, solid, consistent performance (Liked more than either of the E70's) - sold
Topping E70 (ESS9028Pro) - underwhelming - sold
Topping E70 velvet (AK4499EX) - too soft and characterless
Gustard X18 - great DAC, "all you need"/"end game" DAC for most of us - sold as wanted to keep only one desktop (chose the D300)
SABAJ A10d - returned, great, but inconsistent sound, awkward UI
Cayin RU6 - good warm sound, - sold
Cayin N3 Pro - unique sound, versatile travel companion - sold
FiiO Q3 (MQA) - quick return
SMSL DO100 - excellent DAC, just too analytical for my 50+ years ears (great for your old techno/house tracks), great soundstage
SMSL PO100 Pro - returned
SMSL M500 MK III - returned, underwhelming
SMSL C100 - returned, not bad for the price, good for classical music
SMSL D300 (firmware V 1.0) - Superb DAC, kept as my main desktop DAC, warm, full of character and zero fatigue (small click when switching sampling rate - takes time to get used to). Paired with Schiit Magnius headphone amp.
Mojo2 - see above - will keep (...?)
For testing I mainly used the Schiit Magnius headphone amp with balanced and unbalanced headphones:
Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro - unbalanced and modified balanced
Sony MDR-1AM2 - unbalanced and balanced
Monoprice Monolith 1060c (internal foam replaced with wool) - balanced and unbalanced
Hifiman Edition XS - balanced and unbalanced
Koss Porta Pro
Letshuoer S12 planar - balanced
Final A4000
FiiO FD1

So my question is what would you like to compare your Mojo2 to (or Mojo2-2) and why?
Share your journey and listening experience.

Oh you poor soul. All that time spent and maybe money lost on listening to the gear. These boxes are APPLIANCES, TOOLS to do a job and do it most of them do.

If you like the Chord then fine and do please continue to enjoy it, but I bet it's to do with oddball looks and maybe its high price as you pointed out rather than any sonic differences (runs for cover)

If you like the Magnius and with respect, I'd have thought you'd have got a Modius to partner it with and maybe a Pyst interconnect if you couldn't use the circuit-board connecting link they make? Would certainly have looked better together maybe?

 

[VientoB]

Good news! They've figured it out at Audiogon:

Audiogon Discussion Forum

This plethora of DAC’s phenomenon was such a mystery to me for 20 years. How can measurements be so incredible, yet many continue to prefer DACs that...

forum.audiogon.com

Is it true that pre and post echo cannot be measured on an analyser?

 

[voodooless]

Is it true that pre and post echo cannot be measured on an analyser?

No!

 

[Miguelón]

Humans are susceptible to the placebo effect.

IMO it is the only scientific explanation why people report differences in sound between electronic components which are shown not to change the electrical signal (amplitude frequency and phase, that is all there is) more than our ears can detect.
It is a well researched and real effect for those people susceptible to it.

Of course, can bee one explanation. But all gain stages have its own SNR and THD, is unavoidable.
Weather this parameters are audible or not, I don’t know.

Easily you can try, if you have a preamp or a DAC with an preamp function, reduce the volume of the DAC to -60 dBFS and compensate if possible with the preamp adjusted at high or max values, and then going to -20 dBFS with lowing the master volume.

If you’re listening to music with a lot of instruments, like orchestra, you can feel the change in tonality (or maybe not).

Of course this doesn’t demonstrate anything, as you can have the same psychological influence on the test.

Nevertheless is not true that the signal is the same: in an ideal situation all should be linear but this us precisely what nonlinearity means: it can’t be preserved at linear mappings (gain is a linear transformation over the entire curve of frequencies).

Even on power amplifiers and preamps one can set (if each SNR and THD values are known for the stages) an optimal combination of gains given a target SPL.

This is obviously non practical, as one has to change volume from one track to other (assuming are not normalized like Spotify for example), so reasonable values are desirable.

Actually home signals are so hot, whereas many devices are optimized to less than 1V, a lot of DACs give 4 Vrms or more (mine has a surprising 5 Vrms output)

In practice and which my actual setup, is worth to not use XLR balanced or I will loss 5 bits of information.

 

[ElJaimito]

I had a friend who loved his green pen. Why would you go out of your way to ruin his experience? Actively trying to dispel something he's perfectly happy with and ruin his enjoyment is somehow a noble mission because YOU don't like it? I just let him be. Ignorance is bliss. No harm done.

I tried green (and black) pen way back in the day. Interestingly, I could tell the difference: it was easy to detect which CD's had been treated and separate them from the ones that had not been. Visually, that is

 

[VientoB]

Of course, can bee one explanation. But all gain stages have its own SNR and THD, is unavoidable.
Weather this parameters are audible or not, I don’t know.

Easily you can try, if you have a preamp or a DAC with an preamp function, reduce the volume of the DAC to -60 dBFS and compensate if possible with the preamp adjusted at high or max values, and then going to -20 dBFS with lowing the master volume.

If you’re listening to music with a lot of instruments, like orchestra, you can feel the change in tonality (or maybe not).

Of course this doesn’t demonstrate anything, as you can have the same psychological influence on the test.

Nevertheless is not true that the signal is the same: in an ideal situation all should be linear but this us precisely what nonlinearity means: it can’t be preserved at linear mappings (gain is a linear transformation over the entire curve of frequencies).

Even on power amplifiers and preamps one can set (if each SNR and THD values are known for the stages) an optimal combination of gains given a target SPL.

This is obviously non practical, as one has to change volume from one track to other (assuming are not normalized like Spotify for example), so reasonable values are desirable.

Actually home signals are so hot, whereas many devices are optimized to less than 1V, a lot of DACs give 4 Vrms or more (mine has a surprising 5 Vrms output)

In practice and which my actual setup, is worth to not use XLR balanced or I will loss 5 bits of information.

In a DAC distortion is measured at the analogue outputs. After any gain stages.

 

[DSJR]

I tried green (and black) pen way back in the day. Interestingly, I could tell the difference: it was easy to detect which CD's had been treated and separate them from the ones that had not been. Visually, that is

So did I and older UK-based peeps here may remember the Peter Belt 'stuff' that went down in the early 90s all due to a pal of mine who still does reviewing in his retirement (not been in touch for thirty years now though). I have one particular disc that was covered in magic foils and so on. I imagined it made a difference back then, but today, an online playing of my favourite songs from this album, 'sound' all but the same...

We 'wanted to believe' - well some of us anyway

 

[Miguelón]

In a DAC distortion is measured at the analogue outputs. After any gain stages.

Gain exist in a DAC as well as other stages: as measure you low the (digital) volume you increase SNR because of the fact 1 bit quantization noise remains unchanged. For more complicated reasons, THD is at it’s maximum value at 0 dBFS. The sweet point of any DAC is around -10 dBFS or less.

The Signal Chain: How do noise and distortion propagate through my system?

This article is to explore how noise and distortion change through our system, and how different components can influence the final output. A common question is “If I have DAC A, preamp B, and amp C, where should I set the volume and gain controls for the best performance?” Usually this...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[trioderob]

I know for a fact that investing into new DACs, native DSD vs PCM, etc. can at best have a barely perceptible impact on sound quality.

I do not agree - after much experimentation - I can defiantly hear differences in DAC;- I do admit that 30k on a good set of speakers is money better spent than 30k on a better DAC tho...... let me ask you this ...... red book cd players ,,,,,, all the same ?

 

[BDWoody]

I do not agree - after much experimentation - I can defiantly hear differences in DAC;-

And these are with matched level blind comparisons? If not, before you spend a bunch of time and money on this maybe try that.

- enough with the over aggressive nonsense you guys are famous around the internet for pounding people instantly into the ground if they don't confirm to the cult

The only one getting overaggressive here is you.

A cult tends to want you to just believe, rather than prove it to yourself. There is a lot of that cult projection thing out there with people who don't really understand what they talking about.

Don't continue down that path. Trying to understand might be better.

 

[trioderob]

And these are with matched level blind comparisons? If not, before you spend a bunch of time and money on this maybe try that.

let me make sure I understand ..... you think that all dacs sound the same regardless of price ,,,,,,, true or falsehood ?

 

[BDWoody]

let me make sure I understand ..... you think that all dacs sound the same regardless of price ,,,,,,, true or falsehood ?

Of course not. That would be a ridiculous claim without a handful of qualifiers.

Back to my question. Based on your reaction, you haven't used any meaningful controls when making these comparisons. True or falsehood?