Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[SIY]

The flagship converter chips from ESS and AKM have their own sound signatures?

You'd be amazed at how many people claim that (with no evidence, of course).

 

[ahofer]

You'd be amazed at how many people claim that (with no evidence, of course).

Is the ESS “hump” still a thing - and if untamed, is it audible?

 

[ahofer]

All dacs do sound the same maybe
But play ancient highway by van Morrison
Some cd players /dacs make a real mess of this track can someone explain that?

This one? No issues here. Some recording/mix choices, but clear, voice is good, mix is legible. Acoustic guitar track is a little thin, probably by choice. Hearing almost as much strumming noise as chords.

Equipment: Tidal->Roon->Raspberry Pi with ROPIEEXL->RME ADI-2->NAD c298->Harbeth SHL5+(AE) in the setup in my profile pic. Same cat in same place behind my head.

My Blue Jeans cables must have fixed it

 

[Miguelón]

Part right. Quantisation errors can be distortion (but not harmonic distortion - so not a part of THD), but when properly dithered as part of the quantisation process it is effectively converted to noise, similar to tape hiss, but at inaudible levels

See the monty video to see this in action.

Monty video? Can you send me the link?

I’ve been watching one of hims about stair-step myth and dither but cannot find the one about harmonics.

Aliasing, BTW, is present in our magnetic resonance machine (I should guess it just by the fact that uses analogue to digital conversion, but was surprised to listening the technician speaking about the AA filter).

 

[solderdude]

That was the video he mentioned.

In an ADC (recording side) we need/have an anti-aliasing filter.
In a DAC there is (should be) an anti-imaging filter a.k.a. reconstruction filter.
There are DACs that do not have one or one that does not do a particularly good job. These are usually liked by audiophiles because they have some 'weird' roll-off in the treble.

Neither produces harmonics, nor do attenuators produce harmonics.

 

[Miguelón]

That was the video he mentioned.

In an ADC (recording side) we need/have an anti-aliasing filter.
In a DAC there is (should be) an anti-imaging filter a.k.a. reconstruction filter.
There are DACs that do not have one or one that does not do a particularly good job. These are usually liked by audiophiles because they have some 'weird' roll-off in the treble.

Neither produces harmonics, nor do attenuators produce harmonics.

I know that now, before was reading comments in which the writers confounded “non distorted and noise free” sound with “boring and lack of tone”. Many people like crystal highs or “crispy”, I guess they are artifacts by incorrect filters.

I remember a portable Ifi DAC I had, can be the Ifi Go Bar if my memory works well: in the side had little marks to change filters, one of them was “no filter”. It hurt the ears…

 

[solderdude]

They are not artifacts of incorrect filters.
Artifacts are too much image signals (that should not be there but are inaudible but the driver does reproduce those and they are anything but 'euphonic'.
Also these filters generally are sloping and thus have less 'crystal highs'.

Correct filters do not add harmonics nor change the frequency nor phase response.

 

[Miguelón]

They are not artifacts of incorrect filters.
Artifacts are too much image signals (that should not be there but are inaudible but the driver does reproduce those and they are anything but 'euphonic'.
Also these filters generally are sloping and thus have less 'crystal highs'.

Correct filters do not add harmonics nor change the frequency nor phase response

Ok, understood.

Keeping the question mentioned by Antcollinet (“are you listening hiss in quiet moments when playing music?”) I think this time I have the answer to the bizarre irritating highs: they just sound at high volumes, not at high loudness because they appear only when I listen to quiet classical recordings. I suppose they are only noise as to listen orchestra or piano at a player loudness (a bad habit I have since my epoch at the conservatory) I should rise the DAC over the threshold of noise: the hiss and highs sounding bad disappear as soon as I turn down the volume, no matter if is digital or the preamp, or the speaker input gain.

With rock music it doesn’t sound bad because music is so loud that the noise threshold is way under my audible capacities.

What a mess, to listen to an orchestra as if the musicians were in my room, I should went to a system with more SPL…

 

[antcollinet]

I’ve been watching one of hims about stair-step myth and dither but cannot find the one about harmonics.

That's the one.

I was referencing the section on dither at about 11:30 - however having watched it again it seems I was wrong about the (undithered) distortion not being harmonic. It clearly is - sorry for misleading you on that.

However when dither is used (and it always should be - at least at 16 bits) it is replaced with the dither noise.

 

[Cbdb2]

there are a tone of articles explaining how an attenuator works in electronics

Now find some articles that tell you how little a resistive divider (attenuator ) affects the signal. Your Imagining hearing things.

 

[Miguelón]

That's the one.

I was referencing the section on dither at about 11:30 - however having watched it again it seems I was wrong about the (undithered) distortion not being harmonic. It clearly is - sorry for misleading you on that.

However when dither is used (and it always should be - at least at 16 bits) it is replaced with the dither noise.

I love the collection of videos of Audio University, when I have enough time I will get an eye on someones

Now I realized what you told about noise: in fact is only when reproducing classical music at high loudness when I perceive the irritating highs and hiss…

When pontificating stupidly about attenuators and harmonic distortions I forgot the basics: I was pushing the output too much to reach the desired loudness forgetting that the volume was too high.

Now I have to begin again: if I’m correct are precisely the 8030C and their high sensitivity the more convenient to listening weak sources at normal loudness.

 

[solderdude]

Ok, understood.

Keeping the question mentioned by Antcollinet (“are you listening hiss in quiet moments when playing music?”) I think this time I have the answer to the bizarre irritating highs: they just sound at high volumes, not at high loudness because they appear only when I listen to quiet classical recordings. I suppose they are only noise as to listen orchestra or piano at a player loudness (a bad habit I have since my epoch at the conservatory) I should rise the DAC over the threshold of noise: the hiss and highs sounding bad disappear as soon as I turn down the volume, no matter if is digital or the preamp, or the speaker input gain.

With rock music it doesn’t sound bad because music is so loud that the noise threshold is way under my audible capacities.

What a mess, to listen to an orchestra as if the musicians were in my room, I should went to a system with more SPL…

Play a track that has pure silence, this is something different than not playing anything as that will likely mute the output of the DAC reducing the light noise that could be there.
When you hear no noise in the system even at full volume while playing the attached file then the system is noise free.

When playing music and you hear noise you can be sure that noise you hear is in the recording itself.

In the attached zip file you will find an MP3 with 10 minutes of 'silence' that you can use as a test file and can listen to the actual noise floor of a 16bit/44.1 MP3 file (which is as bad as it can get).

 

[Miguelón]

Play a track that has pure silence, this is something different than not playing anything as that will likely mute the output of the DAC reducing the light noise that could be there.
When you hear no noise in the system even at full volume while playing the attached file then the system is noise free.

When playing music and you hear noise you can be sure that noise you hear is in the recording itself.

In the attached zip file you will find an MP3 with 10 minutes of 'silence' that you can use as a test file and can listen to the actual noise floor of a 16bit/44.1 MP3 file (which is as bad as it can get).

Thanks, nothing at my ears level. Apart from the little hiss omnipresent on the Genelecs.

I changed connections to balanced XLR and retuned the audio interface to usual +4 dB values (G Three has the same SPL at its by default level than his pro brother at +4 dB level).

All is ok now, no hiss and I can go as louder as I can support

I don’t know how can be wrong in the RCA WiiM Ultra output, I don’t have a bunch of computers or other electronics devices so close, cables are 2 m length.

Maybe the power strip is not properly grounded?

 

[solderdude]

When you have 3-pin devices and ground pin is not connected somehow a simple test you can do is to rub your finger on metal parts of the cabinet of one of the connected devices (when all connected devices are on).
When you feel a 'bouncing' effect on your finger while rubbing chances are the safety ground is not connected.
When you have proper grounding any device with a metal casing and while rubbing the finger over it should feel 'normal'.


This

 

[Miguelón]

When you have 3-pin devices and ground pin is not connected somehow a simple test you can do is to rub your finger on metal parts of the cabinet of one of the connected devices (when all connected devices are on).
When you feel a 'bouncing' effect on your finger while rubbing chances are the safety ground is not connected.
When you have proper grounding any device with a metal casing and while rubbing the finger over it should feel 'normal'.


This

I don’t feel nothing strange, but nevertheless it may be possible that my WiiM is not working properly, when connected to another portable speaker via RCA to mini jack it sounds bizarre.

Also the usb A port is not well finished, doesn’t matter the cable it moves a lot and turn off the Focusrite at lightest movement.

Going to write Amazon to request a replacement tomorrow.

 

[Miguelón]

When you have 3-pin devices and ground pin is not connected somehow a simple test you can do is to rub your finger on metal parts of the cabinet of one of the connected devices (when all connected devices are on).
When you feel a 'bouncing' effect on your finger while rubbing chances are the safety ground is not connected.
When you have proper grounding any device with a metal casing and while rubbing the finger over it should feel 'normal'.


This

I felt what you told with the test finger but not on the monitors side: on the DAC and the WiiM they feel like they are vibrating when I pass the finger over the metal.

Very funny phenomenon, has anything to do with the 50 Hz AC frequency current?

And that justifies why I notice difference between the XLR balanced connection and the RCA one? Or has nothing to do?

The sound looks cleaner and better when I use the balanced signal, but I’m in ASR enough time to know that may be psychological.

Curiously, the vibrating sensation with the finger disappears when plugging the balanced cables: that not looks psychological, I can feel very clear the bouncing of the surface of both WiiM and Ifi Zen devices.

 

[solderdude]

Very funny phenomenon, has anything to do with the 50 Hz AC frequency current?

Yep, a leakage current from mains to the chassis.
Kind of a 'buzzy' feeling which is not there when disconnected from mains or properly grounded.
When you can mount the mains plug upside down in the socket (not possible in France due to the ground pin ?) with 2 pin plugs you may be able to lower the leakage current in some cases.

And that justifies why I notice difference between the XLR balanced connection and the RCA one? Or has nothing to do?

Curiously, the vibrating sensation with the finger disappears when plugging the balanced cables: that not looks psychological, I can feel very clear the bouncing of the surface of both WiiM and Ifi Zen devices.

Would depend on how everything is wired in the devices.

 

[rococoxxx]

I wish someone would post results of double-blind listener testing to show that someone can hear the difference between a system like this with near-perfect measured performance and a DAC with "merely good" performance like the Schiit Modi 2. Can anyone hear the difference in performance? If not, then what's the point of product designers and manufacturers chasing these numbers?

I compared level matched Oppo 105D (modded), Gustart X18 and the A8 in a non controlled blind test with 3 listeners. The sound of the Sabre DAC's is more revealing, somewhat brighter and vocals are better separated vs A8. All 3 listeners preferred the Sabre sound. AKM is more relaxed and subtle, loses the competition to the untrained ears. How exactly the recording sounded during the recording session we don't know, so subjectively speaking it is impossible to tell which sound is more true to the original recording. The sound signature of AKM vs Sabre is very easy to tell apart in a decent implementation of each DAC.

 

[BDWoody]

Just moved one in.

I compared level matched Oppo 105D (modded), Gustart X18 and the A8 in a non controlled blind test

The sound signature of AKM vs Sabre is very easy to tell apart in a decent implementation of each DAC.

Especially when you aren't using meaningful controls.

 

[Miguelón]

Yep, a leakage current from mains to the chassis.
Kind of a 'buzzy' feeling which is not there when disconnected from mains or properly grounded.
When you can mount the mains plug upside down in the socket (not possible in France due to the ground pin ?) with 2 pin plugs you may be able to lower the leakage current in some cases.



Would depend on how everything is wired in the devices.

Neither my WiiM nor the Ifi have 3 pin; they use only simple 2 pin cable.

The Genelecs are 3 pin, and the power strip has also the ground appropriate females.

Is curious to see mains cables 2 pin on audio gear if they have the potential to electrical loops… or perhaps if the device don’t use some amount current it don’t matter?

I was looking some prices of the Topping D30 Pro DAC that has a very good score on Amir’s table, and have a 3 pin mains socket on the rear