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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

All dacs do sound the same maybe
But play ancient highway by van Morrison
Some cd players /dacs make a real mess of this track can someone explain that?
 
All dacs do sound the same maybe
But play ancient highway by van Morrison
Some cd players /dacs make a real mess of this track can someone explain that?
I think is due to too much output strength so you should loose some bits, and they exist also poor quality DACs.

Amir reviews may help you to find a transparent DAC (they are classified by SINAD values, those on the green and blue side are ok), the prices may surprise you: they are excellent DACs by less than 200€

In this thread the OP only consider and mention specifically “DACs being measured as audibly transparent”. He is not saying that all DACs are equal, but instead “all well made DACs” are equal.

His question is if a DAC with inaudible noise and distortion and perfectly flat can still have a sound signature.

That is the mystery, to most members should be only a psychological phenomenon of suggestion (brand marketing, believes, expectations…) but the thread is still controversial
 
All dacs do sound the same maybe
But play ancient highway by van Morrison
Some cd players /dacs make a real mess of this track can someone explain that?
You first have to demonstrate that it is actually the DAC making a mess of it (assuming you have verified that there is, in fact, a mess being made), via a properly controlled test (or measurement). Probably easiest by recording the output of the DAC in question, and then doing a null comparison in deltawave.

Until then, there is nothing to explain, other than an unverified claim.

Of course - if the DAC in question also measures poorly, then it doesn't fall into the category of measuring transparent. You'll note no-one here states "All dacs sound the same" - there is that always that "measures transparent" qualification.
 
To listen at a reasonable 70 dB SPL at 1 m I have to decrease by 50 dBFS the DAC which has balanced outputs 4 Vrms.
Yep - that is a situation where i'd be putting a passive attenuator on the input to the amp (active speaker in this case). But bear in mind - this is only about noise, not distortion or frequency response. The differences you are describing as hearing are not noise.

I'd probably be comfortable with a digital attenuation of up to about 35-40dB to get down to a 'normal' listening level. But even at the 50dB digital attenuation in your example, I think it most likely that the DAC noise of a good performing DAC would still be inaudible at the listening position in most rooms.

For example if your DAC has an SNR of 115dB (quite common), then with 50dB of digital attenuation, you would still have SNR of 65dB. If your listening level is 70dB SPL, then the DAC noise is going to be down at only 5dB SPL - well below the 30 dB noise floor in a typical room.
 
Hi I have a d300 smsl and very happy with it
I mentioned this particular track
As near the end the mix of instruments gets so complex
Some cd /dacs I have had seem to make sense it
Just to say the d300 is the best I have heard untangling this track
I know it's not scientific but very audible
 
There is nothing in that paper that isn't already pretty well understood around here.

The point you are missing, is that you can completely skip that calculation in many cases, simply because the noise and distortion produced by the devices in question are so low as to be completely inaudible - even after passing through subsequent gain stages**. Especially when listening to music - and even more especially when listening via speakers.

This is certainly the case for the DACs under discussion in this particular subthread.

**Always assuming, of course, you are not doing something really stupid with them such as 60dB of digital attenuation compensated further down the chain by 60dB of extra gain. This would fall under the category of "working hard to screw it up"
Excuse me by bothering you with the same topic, but actually I’m listening to Dire Straits great songs with the lowest gain and the highest digital values I can reach reasonably: 86 dB @ 1 V rms and WiiM Ultra limited to 1 Vrms so I operate on the -20 dBFS range.

And it sounds phenomenal, I know “phenomenal” is mot scientific, but since is free tax to adjust my gear as I want, I can let me to be somewhat irrational and enjoying the balanced clean sound from my speakers :cool:
 
Hi I have a d300 smsl and very happy with it
I mentioned this particular track
As near the end the mix of instruments gets so complex
Some cd /dacs I have had seem to make sense it
Just to say the d300 is the best I have heard untangling this track
I know it's not scientific but very audible
Regardless of how complex the mix is, to the DAC it's still just voltage varying with time. Suspect there's another reason there.
 
Yep - that is a situation where i'd be putting a passive attenuator on the input to the amp (active speaker in this case). But bear in mind - this is only about noise, not distortion or frequency response. The differences you are describing as hearing are not noise.

I'd probably be comfortable with a digital attenuation of up to about 35-40dB to get down to a 'normal' listening level. But even at the 50dB digital attenuation in your example, I think it most likely that the DAC noise of a good performing DAC would still be inaudible at the listening position in most rooms.

For example if your DAC has an SNR of 115dB (quite common), then with 50dB of digital attenuation, you would still have SNR of 65dB. If your listening level is 70dB SPL, then the DAC noise is going to be down at only 5dB SPL - well below the 30 dB noise floor in a typical room.
I think is not necessary now, but I will consider.

I didn’t know how WiiM Ultra can divide by some numbers the voltage output without analogue controls until recent dates
 
Excuse me by bothering you with the same topic, but actually I’m listening to Dire Straits great songs with the lowest gain and the highest digital values I can reach reasonably: 86 dB @ 1 V rms and WiiM Ultra limited to 1 Vrms so I operate on the -20 dBFS range.

And it sounds phenomenal, I know “phenomenal” is mot scientific, but since is free tax to adjust my gear as I want, I can let me to be somewhat irrational and enjoying the balanced clean sound from my speakers :cool:
Nothing there I wouldn't expect. I think 99% of the audiophilliac hand wringing about sound quality of modern electronics is utterly pointless.

Nearly all systems will sound "phenomenal" as long as the speaker/room interaction (together with whatever treatment and/or DSP is applied) will allow them to. Especially of course, with Dire Straits. :)

My speakers cost me £600 (Though are supported by a good Sub). My room is small. My amplification is an AVR. My (music) sources are laptop or vinyl. I've spent some time with Audessey setup using Audessey one scripts.

It sounds phenomenal.

Many so called audiophiles at other places would tell me my system is garbage. Or "Mid Fi" at best. I would happily continue listening to my music, knowing they are idiots.


Glad you are enjoying the sound.
 
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I think is not necessary now, but I will consider.
To find out.

Try it with digital attenuation. Can you hear noise (hiss) at your listening position during periods of silence in the music?

If not - you are golden.

If you can, is the noise loud enough to bother you when listening to music.

If not you are fine.

If it does, consider passive attenuators connected at the input to the amp (not at the output of the DAC).
 
Many so called audiophiles at other places would tell me my system is garbage. Or "Mid Fi" at best. I would happily continue listening to my music, knowing they are idiots.
I love that personally. Especially if you can get them round for a listen and they're blown away. You can actually see them trying to reconcile everything they think they know with what they are hearing.

I said to one 'It's just good speakers in a good acoustic, that's the whole thing.' But no dice, he reckoned I must just have really clean mains power. Horse at water, still no drinky.
 
To find out.

Try it with digital attenuation. Can you hear noise (hiss) at your listening position during periods of silence in the music?

If not - you are golden.

If you can, is the noise loud enough to bother you when listening to music.

If not you are fine.

If it does, consider passive attenuators connected at the input to the amp (not at the output of the DAC).
Humm, difficult to evaluate, Genelecs show “hiss” in all of the 80xx lineup whatever the signal strength or the input gain,

I don’t know why, doesn’t bother me so much, but seem independent of the input.

Actually sound very good with the 1V output and the -10 dB sensitivity adjustment. It looks a little bit limit when listening low quality classical music that tend to be recorder at low volumes so I push the DAC near 95% volume.

But since I’m using only one speaker and waiting for the other, it will be ok when raising those 3 to 6 dB adding a second source
 
Humm, difficult to evaluate, Genelecs show “hiss” in all of the 80xx lineup whatever the signal strength or the input gain,

I don’t know why, doesn’t bother me so much, but seem independent of the input.

Actually sound very good with the 1V output and the -10 dB sensitivity adjustment. It looks a little bit limit when listening low quality classical music that tend to be recorder at low volumes so I push the DAC near 95% volume.

But since I’m using only one speaker and waiting for the other, it will be ok when raising those 3 to 6 dB adding a second source
Let me modify slightly.


Try it with digital attenuation. Can you hear noise (hiss) Does the hiss at your listening position during periods of silence in the music get no worse?
 
Let me modify slightly.
No hiss at all at actual levels, but a lot of it when trying high gain combinations.

What improve a lot with low gain combination is mid highs and highs that tend to be irritating: violins and piano upper keys. That made me think more in distortion than in noise, but as I remember ultimately THD came also from quantization errors or am I wrong?

Also I think, by common sense and some experience, that having an active monitor with RCA connections at 86 dB @ 1 V rms when my average listening levels are around 70-75 dB SPL, than keeping the same active monitor which can only goes to 94 dB @ 1 V rms and only have XLR balanced inputs.

The most rational decision is G Three, which was actually my dilemma (and sorry again for going out of the thread), since if has both RCA and XLR inputs and if needed I can switch sensitivity to 96 dB @ 1 V rms

They are more adapted to home listening, or at least at my listening levels. Price is equal, measured equal, SPL is equal, all is equal except inputs and sensitivity
 
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THD came also from quantization errors or am I wrong?
Part right. Quantisation errors can be distortion (but not harmonic distortion - so not a part of THD), but when properly dithered as part of the quantisation process it is effectively converted to noise, similar to tape hiss, but at inaudible levels

See the monty video to see this in action.
 
I love that personally. Especially if you can get them round for a listen and they're blown away. You can actually see them trying to reconcile everything they think they know with what they are hearing.

I said to one 'It's just good speakers in a good acoustic, that's the whole thing.' But no dice, he reckoned I must just have really clean mains power. Horse at water, still no drinky.
My first introduction to this wake-up call, came in the mid 90s when I heard a variety of known and unknown speakers at wildly different price points, sound equally excellent. The room (a converted tandem-garage) had been very carefully set up by a pro acoustician - and it showed, the speakers in a more 'live' end and the listener in the more 'treated' end, as heard in a concert hall. In this room, it worked a treat!!! For our UK readers, I'd NEVER heard Heybrook HB1s sound so good - and I'd done countless dems and sales of this model, from sweeter-toned first launch versions to the final and rather more 'spiteful' late production (I gather they had to change the bass-mid driver in production).
 
My first introduction to this wake-up call, came in the mid 90s when I heard a variety of known and unknown speakers at wildly different price points, sound equally excellent. The room (a converted tandem-garage) had been very carefully set up by a pro acoustician - and it showed, the speakers in a more 'live' end and the listener in the more 'treated' end, as heard in a concert hall. In this room, it worked a treat!!! For our UK readers, I'd NEVER heard Heybrook HB1s sound so good - and I'd done countless dems and sales of this model, from sweeter-toned first launch versions to the final and rather more 'spiteful' late production (I gather they had to change the bass-mid driver in production).
I went to the water a few times and refused to take a drink.

One time I recall a system that belonged to a musician, a very talented multi-instrumentalist.

Portable CD player, old Rotel amp and some 1970s KEFS. Blew away my system. He would laugh about cables and the magic of analogue, and general audiophilia, he just regarded it all as nonsense.

I didn't listen to him at the time despite the evidence he was right being audibly obvious.
 
The flagship converter chips from ESS and AKM have their own sound signatures?
 
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