Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[sonitus mirus]

It’s just more of the same, overconfident audio enthusiasts clinging to anecdotal beliefs about DACs and amps, confusing personal bias with audibility.

 

[DSJR]

Ok.
This is also my last post in this thread.

I assure you that a KIT amplifier made with modest components, just by the fact of being assembled and soldered by me, will sound worse than one assembled and soldered in an amplifier factory, even if it were the same one.

In any case, it has been a pleasure to chat politely in this thread.

No need to go at all! Some do-it-yourself amp kits can be spectacularly well made with careful wiring looms, good heatsinking and general internal layout, sometimes better than some cost-conscious mass-produced products. Less well compromised payouts may well introduce measured differences, but whether you'd actually 'HEAR' the difference, I don't know - human hearing is dire compared to the animal world, yet some 'golden ears' think they're fantastic at hearing differences. Perceiving multi-sensory differences, yes, but I repeat it's not just on hearing alone.

It's well worth hanging around, reading a few threads and posts by the experienced technical experts here. As you 'mop up' the info presented, I'm sure you'll begin to find yourself feeling the music better and not worry or fret about the playback system apart from the most important speaker-room interface, which can kill even the best sorted systems as well as on the other hand, make less than ideal setups sing so well.

 

[krabapple]

I have read the Matrix tests on occasion.
I have a basic audio system and I have listened to some other higher level equipment and there are notable differences.

OK, but if you already read about what blind tests are for, you know that the usual 'listening' can produce 'notable differences' that aren't real.

Start from there. Don't try to 'convince' just with anecdotes from sighted comparison.

 

[ahofer]

I know there’s an idea here that visual/sensory bias is underexplored. I don’t think that’s true. Here are some quick google results.

Bias in Auditory Perception - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Neural Mechanisms Underlying the Auditory Looming Bias - PMC

Our auditory system constantly keeps track of our environment, informing us about our surroundings and warning us of potential threats. The auditory looming bias is an early perceptual phenomenon, reflecting higher alertness of listeners to ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Certainly the concepts of confirmation/expectation bias is well established, but also seems to have been examined in auditory contexts. Is that insufficient evidence to control for it?

 

[pablolie]

we live in an era where personal belief can triumph over basic, proven scientific facts.

people out there claiming the moon landing never happened, the earth is flat, and Bible creationism can be proven (which one of the 3 contradictory versions in the Old Testament they never bother to clarify, though ). or the current hurricanes were engineered. or some baby eating satanic cartels control politics.

at least believing in audible differences between identically measuring devices is innocent enough...

 

[Miguelón]

Is been months since the last time I red this post, I hope now I’m more wise than before.

From time to time the question turns around and I was confused because even accepting scientific arguments I still perceive audible differences between my various DACs.

Finally I think I have one possible explanation, but maybe unsatisfactory for the majority. But to me it explains a lot of things and is sustained by my new (little but yet solid) knowledge in electronics.

First we should reformulate the question of the post and specify if the DAC is a pure standalone analogue to digital converter or if it has a volume analogue control (normally an attenuator).

In my particular case, all of my devices have this knob, or internal adjustments to regulate voltage output. And this is what I think it changes.

All attenuation or gain stage add its own harmonics to the signal, the more the gain (attenuation or magnification) the more harmonics it has. The better the quality the lesser the harmonics, in general. I expect also some crap in passive or active preamps…

This explains the subtle changes on tonality when combining different outputs voltages with corresponding volumes on the amp, or the different tonality I found between two DAC-amps since I’m not listening at full voltage. Gain is then different in the preamp section and also the circuits should have slightly different harmonics.

Recently I was really surprised when comparing Genelec 8020 vs Genelec G Two (same electronics but different sensitivity by 10 dB) and also 8030C vs G Three.

The professional lineup has a by default 106 dB @ 1V sensitivity and to compare it with the home version at 96 dB @ 1V I should reduce the input gain by 10 dB using the 80xx inbuilt attenuator which changes quite noticeably the sound.

I hope some of the confusion is explained by the less linear preamps and attenuators, and some people try to compare only pure DACs: then I’m sure that is impossible to differentiate harmonics in the order of magnitude they show on measurements

 

[olds1959special]

Since the Fiio K11 R2R has no remote control it can't really work in my main system so I moved to my bookshelf speaker desktop setup. I was having some issues with the bass being too much and the sound not seeming natural, a problem I had with another Fiio DAC I tried that I ended up returning. Using a silver IC seemed to help. Also I'm using OS mode for a better sound (imo.)

 

[voodooless]

unfiltered goodness

The irony

 

[TonyJZX]

it'd be an interesting academic study to bench a K11 Crystal edition vs the K11 R2R

can you predict the result?

 

[olds1959special]

The irony

while I like my apple juice unfiltered, after some experimenting I found I preferred the OS mode on this DAC.

 

[staticV3]

it'd be an interesting academic study to bench a K11 Crystal edition vs the K11 R2R

Never heard of the Crystal edition, Google comes up empty as well.

Do you have any details?

 

[antcollinet]

I have gotten the chance to listen to one of my favorite albums on the Fiio K11 R2R as a music DAC in my system. I'm on the first song and it's pretty great to hear the improvements / changes to the sound over my SMSL DO100 Pro, particularly in the areas of weight, texture, and listenability. One thing is for sure, the Fiio puts out a less hot signal. I can turn it up all the way to 99 and turn up the pre-amp to a full 9 o'clock on the volume. Using my DO100 Pro like this would be WAY too loud. So it's a better match for my system. I wish it had a remote control though.

Fiio claim only 72dB Sinad. (THD+N = 0.025%) and it is all distortion since SNR is better than 115dB

It's actually unlikely you can hear distortion at -72dB - most cannot on music, so it is quite likely what you are hearing are the result of perceptive biases.

However - even if you are hearing a real difference - it is only distortion. The opposite of HiFi (objectively by their own specs, mid Fi at best), and nothing magic.

 

[olds1959special]

Fiio claim only 72dB Sinad. (THD+N = 0.025%) and it is all distortion since SNR is better than 115dB

It's actually unlikely you can hear distortion at -72dB - most cannot on music, so it is quite likely what you are hearing are the result of perceptive biases.

However - even if you are hearing a real difference - it is only distortion. The opposite of HiFi (objectively by their own specs, mid Fi at best), and nothing magic.

Just a subjective impression, this dac seems to have a smaller soundstage and I'm wondering if this is related to the low SINAD. There is something less open about it compared to my other DAC, but it seems to do well with simpler arrangements (less complex sounding recordings.)

I'm really enjoying this DAC right now in my bookshelf system, with the silver IC's. It kind of blows away my Apogee Duet 2 for music playback, it's a lot more fun to listen to.

 

[TonyJZX]

Never heard of the Crystal edition, Google comes up empty as well.

Desktop Decoding Headphone Power Amplifier K11

benefits from continuous exploration and progress We have a new understanding of the entry desk. K11 will be thin fuselage, rich interface, strong thrust "Screen" strength, become your desktop HiFi high color value listening partner

www.fiio.com

it runs a Crystal Semi CS43198 like any normal unit

the R2R is... whatever R2R is supposed to be

 

[oleg87]

CS43198 is a Cirrus Logic product.

 

[antcollinet]

Just a subjective impression,

Just..... indeed.

 

[BDWoody]

Since the Fiio K11 R2R has no remote control it can't really work in my main system so I moved to my bookshelf speaker desktop setup. I was having some issues with the bass being too much and the sound not seeming natural, a problem I had with another Fiio DAC I tried that I ended up returning. Using a silver IC seemed to help. Also I'm using OS mode for a better sound (imo.)

And we'll just move the few posts in this thread here.

 

[BDWoody]

I still perceive audible differences between my various DACs.

Have you gone through the hassle of setting up some basic controls for your comparisons?

If not, you might want to give it a try.

 

[Miguelón]

Have you gone through the hassle of setting up some basic controls for your comparisons?

If not, you might want to give it a try.

Which controls?

I know well the formal protocol, but for example putting one 8030 and another G Three (measure the same in spinorama made by Genelec), adjusting gain and verifying levels with a mic, they sound way different in tonality, if it was subtle I would have some doubts but not at all… Not any need for blind test

The only electronic compound that differs is the attenuator in the 8030C (should I regulated to +4 dB position approx). I even consulted Genelec and they answered that in fact is the only difference by XLR connections.

Also my Focusrite Scarlett has an attenuator, I can easily get up 10 dBu and compensate with the -10 dB of the G Three (verifying the composition with the mic) and it sound quite different.

But this should be quite easy to you to understand, all gain stage has its own SNR and THD. Is not an opinion, is a fact.

What I’m not trying to do is to solve the question of the post, but to clarify some sound tonality differences when a variable voltage component is introduced on DAC comparisons.

POST EDIT: What I’m saying is whereas all well done DACs are audible transparent, is not the case for preamps. and attenuators.

 

[Mart68]

I think it's an error to assume that just because the perceived difference is large, you don't need to blind test.

Also not convinced that noise or distortion would be at audible levels unless the gain staging issue was extreme. But I leave whether that is correct to the experts.