Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Vicent]

I am pretty sure that there's a traditional potentiometer behind the headphone volume dial that's attenuating the analog signal.

These days with DACs routinely reaching 125+ dB of dynamic range, it is entirely feasible to control the output volume in the digital domain and still have perfectly acceptable maximum output and noise levels.

OK thanks.

 

[Vicent]

Emphasis on thorough.


I am pretty sure that there's a traditional potentiometer behind the headphone volume dial that's attenuating the analog signal.

These days with DACs routinely reaching 125+ dB of dynamic range, it is entirely feasible to control the output volume in the digital domain and still have perfectly acceptable maximum output and noise levels.


An E2x2 should drive these with ease, they need somewhat low output impedance (say 10 ohms max) but otherwise are not too demanding.

BTW, you can edit your posts for quite a while, no need to post again if you have something to add.

OK, thanks a lot.
But it often happens that after a first reading, one does not read it a second time and the edition is left hanging, as may be happening now.

 

[olds1959special]

I have gotten the chance to listen to one of my favorite albums on the Fiio K11 R2R as a music DAC in my system. I'm on the first song and it's pretty great to hear the improvements / changes to the sound over my SMSL DO100 Pro, particularly in the areas of weight, texture, and listenability. One thing is for sure, the Fiio puts out a less hot signal. I can turn it up all the way to 99 and turn up the pre-amp to a full 9 o'clock on the volume. Using my DO100 Pro like this would be WAY too loud. So it's a better match for my system. I wish it had a remote control though.

 

[Luchof26]

Well, I understand your position, although I think there are some. I don't know if transparency, as I understand it, can be measured. Any low-priced electronic capacitor of such and such value will measure the same as a more expensive one of the same value, however, it is more than likely that they will not sound the same.

This is the eternal problem of HI-FI and HI-END.
But I understand what you say and I thank you for your recommendations.

The eternal problem with HI-FI and HI-END . Well put, just make your own mind about what you believe and ignore evangelist/echo chambers. Maybe the only thing we agree on is that the Topping is a good device that will allow you to hear your music transparently without coloration and record your music in the same way. If you have a little more budget the Presonus Quantum HD2 is also a very recommended device. It has a little more THD than the Topping but I prefer mixing with the Presonus. Also has additional expansion with ADAT, great instruments DI's, reamping, SPDIF and headphone amp. Both great devices at very good prices.

 

[Vicent]

The eternal problem with HI-FI and HI-END . Well put, just make your own mind about what you believe and ignore evangelist/echo chambers. Maybe the only thing we agree on is that the Topping is a good device that will allow you to hear your music transparently without coloration and record your music in the same way. If you have a little more budget the Presonus Quantum HD2 is also a very recommended device. It has a little more THD than the Topping but I prefer mixing with the Presonus. Also has additional expansion with ADAT, great instruments DI's, reamping, SPDIF and headphone amp. Both great devices at very good prices.

Thank you very much.
I will look at the model you recommend.

I just saw the price of the Presonus and it's a lot of money for a beginner hobbyist like me, but thank you again.

 

[BDWoody]

More moved in.

 

[BDWoody]

make your own mind about what you believe and ignore evangelist/echo chambers.

You'd be better off ignoring all the unsupported anecdotal claims and instead learning how to read and understand all those scary charts and graphs and measurements.

That's going to give you immunity to all the nonsense out there.

 

[Luchof26]

You'd be better off ignoring all the unsupported anecdotal claims and instead learning how to read and understand all those scary charts and graphs and measurements.

That's going to give you immunity to all the nonsense out there.

I will, Thanks!

 

[007Shorty]

I think it's a good time to mention the “Matrix Audio Test” again.

Here is the summary from NwAvGuy:

"BELIEVING = BIAS: If the guy who thinks I’m an idiot for comparing the Mini3 to the E5 were to sit down and listen to both side-by-side which do you think he’d say sounds better? There’s almost zero chance he’d choose the E5. This same bias is widespread in audio. You have a $300 DAC, you arrange to listen to a $3000 DAC, and even if they sound exactly the same, your brain and hearing are “wired” to think the $3000 DAC sounds better. So how do we get around this problem?

BED SHEETS & TESTING: As you probably guessed, blind testing is the “dirty secret” I referred to at the start of the article. Matrix Audio conducted a relatively simple and eye opening example. The photo at the right shows the test set up with two different systems under a bed sheet sharing a pair of high-end speakers. Volunteers stood behind the speakers and swapped the high-end cables. There were no switch boxes involved. The result, if you haven’t seen it elsewhere, is the listeners couldn’t tell a high-end $12,000 stack of gear from a $700 (I’d say closer to $400) set up with a pro-sound power amp, bargain basement CD player, and a cheap obscenely long RCA cable connecting the two. You can read all about it here:

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

(photo: Matrix Audio)"

 

[Vicent]

I have read the Matrix tests on occasion.
I have a basic audio system and I have listened to some other higher level equipment and there are notable differences.
Furthermore, my speaker boxes are homemade, assembled by me and modified and carried out tests with different configurations for both speaker positioning, enclosure design and different filters and configurations of these, all based on trial and error, and I have been able to prove over time (several years) and listening to different configurations that there is a lot of difference between one and another, both when the transducers are the same and what changes is the filter configuration and vice versa and both in coloration and transparency, sound stage and general listening quality, and not just preferences.
And now I am going to say "the phrase" "According to my perception".

I think this is summed up in a phrase we say in Spain.
" neither bald nor three wigs "
That is to say that situations for everything but that quality is noted in all circumstances "almost always".

 

[WOLFAGRAM]

Hello my Friend.

I'm on the first song and it's pretty great to hear the improvements / changes to the sound over my SMSL DO100 Pro, particularly in the areas of weight, texture, and listenability. One thing is for sure, the Fiio puts out a less hot signal.

I have a very cheap basic FiiO BR13 bluetooth receiver/DAC. For the price it sounds acceptable. In any case it sounds much better than a no-name BT receiver it replaced. However, the signal on the line out is somewhat quiet. Compared to line out my DVD/SACD player, it is 12 o'clock vs. 9 o'clock on the preamp volume. It is also quieter than my old no-name BT receiver, although the difference is somewhat smaller. I guess it is a common characteristic of FiiO products.


Cheers.

 

[Luchof26]

I have read the Matrix tests on occasion.
I have a basic audio system and I have listened to some other higher level equipment and there are notable differences.
Furthermore, my speaker boxes are homemade, assembled by me and modified and carried out tests with different configurations for both speaker positioning, enclosure design and different filters and configurations of these, all based on trial and error, and I have been able to prove over time (several years) and listening to different configurations that there is a lot of difference between one and another, both when the transducers are the same and what changes is the filter configuration and vice versa and both in coloration and transparency, sound stage and general listening quality, and not just preferences.
And now I am going to say "the phrase" "According to my perception".

I think this is summed up in a phrase we say in Spain.
" neither bald nor three wigs "
That is to say that situations for everything but that quality is noted in all circumstances "almost always".

I don't think is worth debating about this topic here. I actually enjoy this forum and the reviews it does. I just commented on your post because I really like Topping gear. Now they even moved the topic here . I'll avoid commenting further in this forum, since I have better things to do with my life. Saludos, Vicente!

 

[BDWoody]

Furthermore, my speaker boxes are homemade,

Speakers and transducers in general are in a very different category than solid state electronics.

Plenty to sound different when you are dealing with little motors. In decent electronics, not so much. Hard to believe, until you actually do some controlled testing where you can't peek or get clues (blind, levels matched, etc). If you haven't done that before, give it a try before you dismiss the idea.

 

[DSJR]

I feel that all newcomers to an objective way of listening after many years of subjectivism ruling their choices, just need to try to understand that our listening perceptions are, in actual fact, a combination of ALL of our senses, not just our hearing alone. The look, feel, price (yes, that too) and even the listening venue and listening-company, can play a huge part in opinions of audiophiles who 'don't know.' Take all those influences away and things become more real as to what a given item is doing. I have anecdotes, some of which I've shared in the past, but until out-and-out subjectivists experience these things for themselves, they'll continue to think we're crackpots who 'listen' to sinad figures and not a note of music, speech or song on our sound rigs...

 

[Vicent]

Ok.
This is also my last post in this thread.
I understand that speakers are in a different category but not that much, because the frequency filters are electronic and by varying them they modify the sound reproduced by the transducers.

I assure you that a KIT amplifier made with modest components, just by the fact of being assembled and soldered by me, will sound worse than one assembled and soldered in an amplifier factory, even if it were the same one.

I also have anecdotes but they are not going to end with either school of thought.

In any case, it has been a pleasure to chat politely in this thread.

 

[Vicent]

I don't think is worth debating about this topic here. I actually enjoy this forum and the reviews it does. I just commented on your post because I really like Topping gear. Now they even moved the topic here . I'll avoid commenting further in this forum, since I have better things to do with my life. Saludos, Vicente!

Very grateful.
Regards.

 

[Jim Taylor]

De acuerdo.
Éste también es mi último post en este hilo.
Entiendo que los altavoces están en una categoría diferente pero no tanto, porque los filtros de frecuencia son electrónicos y al variarlos modifican el sonido que reproducen los transductores.

Os aseguro que un amplificador KIT hecho con componentes modestos, solo por el hecho de estar montado y soldado por mí, sonará peor que uno montado y soldado en una fábrica de amplificadores, aunque fuera el mismo.

También tengo anécdotas pero no van a acabar con ninguna de las dos escuelas de pensamiento.

En cualquier caso, ha sido un placer charlar educadamente en este hilo.

I suspect that @Vicent forgot to use his translation app. For those who want to know what he posted, here is a translation:

Okay.
This is also my last post in this thread.
I understand that speakers are in a different category but not that much, because the frequency filters are electronic and by varying them they modify the sound reproduced by the transducers.

I assure you that a KIT amp made with modest components, just for the fact of being assembled and soldered by me, will sound worse than one assembled and soldered in an amp factory, even if it was the same.

I also have anecdotes but they are not going to kill either school of thought.

In any case, it's been a pleasure to chat politely in this thread.


Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

 

[Vicent]

I suspect that @Vicent forgot to use his translation app. For those who want to know what he posted, here is a translation:

Okay.
This is also my last post in this thread.
I understand that speakers are in a different category but not that much, because the frequency filters are electronic and by varying them they modify the sound reproduced by the transducers.

I assure you that a KIT amp made with modest components, just for the fact of being assembled and soldered by me, will sound worse than one assembled and soldered in an amp factory, even if it was the same.

I also have anecdotes but they are not going to kill either school of thought.

In any case, it's been a pleasure to chat politely in this thread.


Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

Again...God...when will I learn?
It's a problem with the page translator, which automatically translates my post into Spanish at the time of pasting and I don't realize it.

Thank you very much.

 

[sq225917]

@SIY, midwit, I like that... very apt. I'd prefer a description, " knows a lot of technical stuff but not their arse from their elbow".

 

[SIY]

" knows a lot of technical stuff but not their arse from their elbow".

I would have some disagreement about the first part. Some, yes, a lot, no. Mid.