Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Vicent]

Hi @Vicent! Welcome to ASR.


Any sort of sound profile would show up as a deviation from flat in Krause's Headphone out frequency response graph:
View attachment 399401

That there is no deviation, means that the E2x2 is a neutral audio source.

It'll play your music/audio as-is, without imparting any kind of profile or coloration or sound onto it.

Thank you very much for answering and for the welcome.

My knowledge of audio technicalities is limited but I don't know if it's enough to see a response curve to know how a DAC, preamplifier or any audio device sounds.
I was referring to the color, the warmth, the clarity, the smoothness of the highs, the cleanliness of the bass, the roundness of the midrange and voices, the sound stage...
In other words, the eternal problem that arises when you have to choose a "music" audio device when you can't listen to it before buying and that although the Topping E2x2 is an input device it also contains that information and can be compared with others of the same class to be able to choose and that's why I asked here in case someone who owns it could describe to me how they hear it even though we all know the subjectivity of each person's listening.

And also about the noise Julian Krause talks about when operating the knobs, a defect that seems to me to be quite serious and that nobody talks about.
Of course it could be a defect of that unit, but given Topping's history of complications, I think it is advisable to talk about it.

 

[staticV3]

I was referring to the color, the warmth, the clarity, the smoothness of the highs, the cleanliness of the bass, the roundness of the midrange and voices, the sound stage...

Simply put, the E2x2 will play your music with all the color, the warmth, the clarity, the smoothness of the highs, the cleanliness of the bass, the roundness of the midrange and voices, and the sound stage that is present in the recording.

It will not add warmth, nor will it take warmth away.
It won't expand the stereo stage, nor will it be compressed.

It will simply reproduce the sound that was created by the artist and refined in the mastering studio.
Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Luchof26]

Hello.
I'm new to the forum and I apologize for the automatic translation.

I'd be interested in knowing something about the noise of the knobs when operating them as mentioned in a review by Julian Krause.
And also how the headphone output sounds in terms of high fidelity and compared to amplifiers such as the ifi audio.

I'm surprised that this isn't discussed here since it's the only fault that Julian Krause has with this interface and nothing is said about its sound profile on headphones.
Or maybe I just haven't read it...

The Topping E2X2 is very good for monitoring audio in a recording enviroment. I had no issues with pots scratching while adjusting. I'm really happy with the Topping E2X2. It does performe in all its different capacities well above its price range. If you are not going to record audio maybe its better to get one of their DAC's or combo products. I have a E50/L50 combo that performs in my opinion better than the E2X2 but at a significant cost increase. Indeed they are both transparent but the transient response and stereo image presented is slightly different IMHO.

 

[staticV3]

The Topping E2X2 is very good for monitoring audio in a recording enviroment. I had no issues with pots scratching while adjusting. I'm really happy with the Topping E2X2. It does performe in all its different capacities well above its price range. If you are not going to record audio maybe its better to get one of their DAC's or combo products. I have a E50/L50 combo that performs in my opinion better than the E2X2 but at a significant cost increase. Indeed they are both transparent but the transient response and stereo image presented is slightly different IMHO.

Have you tried matching the levels with a multimeter?

Without that step, comparing their sound is meaningless.

 

[Vicent]

The Topping E2X2 is very good for monitoring audio in a recording enviroment. I had no issues with pots scratching while adjusting. I'm really happy with the Topping E2X2. It does performe in all its different capacities well above its price range. If you are not going to record audio maybe its better to get one of their DAC's or combo products. I have a E50/L50 combo that performs in my opinion better than the E2X2 but at a significant cost increase. Indeed they are both transparent but the transient response and stereo image presented is slightly different IMHO.

Thank you very much, this is what I was referring to.
I don't record real instruments yet, just VST, but I can't rule out that I will do so in the future. Therefore, I am trying to find an interface that will perform well within these prices without having to sacrifice the need for recording inputs in the future.
Hi-fi DACs for headphones will probably color the audio.
Thank you very much for the information about your perception of the sound and about the noise of the knobs.
What devices, model and brand are you referring to with E50/L50?

 

[Vicent]

Simply put, the E2x2 will play your music with all the color, the warmth, the clarity, the smoothness of the highs, the cleanliness of the bass, the roundness of the midrange and voices, and the sound stage that is present in the recording.

It will not add warmth, nor will it take warmth away.
It won't expand the stereo stage, nor will it be compressed.

It will simply reproduce the sound that was created by the artist and refined in the mastering studio.
Nothing more, nothing less.

So what's the point of looking for interfaces or preamps with better converter chips and better components in general to improve the audio provided by Smartphones and computers...for example?
If a simple look at a frequency curve was enough we would have much less problems choosing audio devices and all brands would manufacture in the same way.
Maybe you mean that the E2x2 topping has a high-end flat sound?

Another thing is that you are of the opinion that at the same volume everything sounds practically the same.

Excuse my skepticism.

 

[TimW]

So what's the point of looking for interfaces or preamps with better converter chips and better components in general to improve the audio provided by Smartphones and computers...for example?
If a simple look at a frequency curve was enough we would have much less problems choosing audio devices and all brands would manufacture in the same way.
Maybe you mean that the E2x2 topping has a high-end flat sound?

Another thing is that you are of the opinion that at the same volume everything sounds practically the same.

Excuse my skepticism.

That's the conclusion many here at ASR have come to, myself included. Buy audio electronics with the features you want, that fit in your budget, that measure well enough to be transparent, that you enjoy using, and which are hopefully reliable with good after sales support. I have never been able to hear the difference between two well measuring converters with properly matched volumes. On the other hand It's very easy to hear a difference when levels aren't properly matched and the listening is sighted.

 

[Luchof26]

So what's the point of looking for interfaces or preamps with better converter chips and better components in general to improve the audio provided by Smartphones and computers...for example?
If a simple look at a frequency curve was enough we would have much less problems choosing audio devices and all brands would manufacture in the same way.
Maybe you mean that the E2x2 topping has a high-end flat sound?

Another thing is that you are of the opinion that at the same volume everything sounds practically the same.

Excuse my skepticism.

I agree with you. I had lots of different interfaces from RME, Ferrofish, Topping, Presonus and TC Electronic. I work for a production company and esencially I'm making music everyday in significant quantities. The music I make is influenced by the DAC I'm using because the decisions I make are influenced by the DAC's. All this DAC's have flat frequencies response in the tests and all that. Still I do hear some differences. Other people might disagree and that is fine. Some people listen to music, some people make music and some people play music through their DAC's. All of the above are different experiences that have different requierements.

Coming back to the topic the Topping E2X2 is a great unit. Its a good AD/DA, with a good headphone amp. If you cannot make good music with it its user error. Great times to have a device that performs this well for such a reasonable amount of money.

 

[staticV3]

So what's the point of looking for interfaces or preamps with better converter chips and better components in general to improve the audio provided by Smartphones and computers...for example?

Differential output, higher output voltage, better I/O, remote control, better support for various audio formats.

 

[staticV3]

I agree with you. I had lots of different interfaces from RME, Ferrofish, Topping, Presonus and TC Electronic. I work for a production company and esencially I'm making music everyday in significant quantities. The music I make is influenced by the DAC I'm using because the decisions I make are influenced by the DAC's. All this DAC's have flat frequencies response in the tests and all that. Still I do hear some differences. Other people might disagree and that is fine. Some people listen to music, some people make music and some people play music through their DAC's. All of the above are different experiences that have different requierements.

Great. Choose any of your DACs and record an audio snippet from it using various interfaces.

Load the clips into Pkane Deltawave, let it do its thing, then use the built-in ABX comparator to see if you can still distinguish between converters, even if levels are matched and you don't know which one is playing.

Repeat with multiple DACs into one interface if desired.

It's quite the transformative experience that may well revolutionize your professional workflow

 

[AnalogSteph]

Therefore, I am trying to find an interface that will perform well within these prices without having to sacrifice the need for recording inputs in the future.

If nothing else, they would be handy if you ever found the need to use a measurement microphone to calibrate a speaker setup.

Hi-fi DACs for headphones will probably color the audio.

Not usually, no. You can buy some tube or NOS / R-2R silliness if you insist, but there are plenty of good no-nonsense ones out there that measure well and sound just fine. Even dongle DACs.

What devices, model and brand are you referring to with E50/L50?

These are a Topping DAC and headphone amp.

So what's the point of looking for interfaces or preamps with better converter chips and better components in general to improve the audio provided by Smartphones and computers...for example?

Beyond a certain point it's more about covering eventualities.

That fancier DAC will be good enough for preamp use. A fancier headphone amp might have lower noise for IEMs, higher output for voltage-hungry cans and more power for planars all at the same time.

Plus there's "because I can afford it". These days you can buy fairly inexpensive DACs and headphone amps that basically beat anything on the market 20 years ago.

If you just need a basic line-level source with unbalanced output and relatively modest signal level around 1 Vrms, even a standard onboard Realtek codec sounds perfectly fine (note: there may be some misimprovements that are being turned on for headphone use and would need to be deactivated manually). It won't be winning any awards for cutting-edge measured performance in terms of THD or THD+N by any stretch, but it'll be good enough for what one typically needs to run into a headphone amp or integrated amp. The best models like ALC1220 / ALC4080 even make it to preamp-grade dynamic range with 2 Vrms output.

As a rule of thumb, you typically need a whole lot less performance than you want.

If a simple look at a frequency curve was enough we would have much less problems choosing audio devices and all brands would manufacture in the same way.

Well, it does take a few more parameters than that in addition, and you can look at those in @Julian Krause's review. In any case, the E2x2 is fine. No, it doesn't have nearly as much output power as a L30 II / L50, so if you're semi-deaf and have a Hifiman HE-6 or vintage 600 ohm AKGs to drive, it may not be ideal. It also still needs an analog volume control with all is potential concerns regarding channel balance since the DAC maxes out at a dynamic range of 115 dB(A) and that's not quite preamp-grade yet.

 

[Vicent]

That's the conclusion many here at ASR have come to, myself included. Buy audio electronics with the features you want, that fit in your budget, that measure well enough to be transparent, that you enjoy using, and which are hopefully reliable with good after sales support. I have never been able to hear the difference between two well measuring converters with properly matched volumes. On the other hand It's very easy to hear a difference when levels aren't properly matched and the listening is sighted.

Well, I understand your position, although I think there are some. I don't know if transparency, as I understand it, can be measured. Any low-priced electronic capacitor of such and such value will measure the same as a more expensive one of the same value, however, it is more than likely that they will not sound the same.

This is the eternal problem of HI-FI and HI-END.
But I understand what you say and I thank you for your recommendations.

 

[Vicent]

Before I continue, I apologize because I'm getting confused with the posts and translations.
I hope that little by little I will become familiar with this website.

 

[staticV3]

I don't know if transparency, as I understand it, can be measured.

It sure can.

I don't think that your capacitor example is applicable here as when measuring audio equipment, we're actually analyzing the sound that comes out of these devices, not some parameter separate from audio playback.

We do this with static tones like sine waves, highly complex signals like multitones, and with actual music using Null tests.

There is no possible way in which a device could ace a thorough set of measurements, but fail at music playback, or vice versa.

The magic attributes that you wish existed in HiFi to preserve a certain level of mystique and romance, simply do not exist.

If you think that you've perceived such attributes yourself, then it was most likely your mind playing tricks on you, which would've been prevented using appropriate controls.

 

[Luchof26]

Great. Choose any of your DACs and record an audio snippet from it using various interfaces.

Load the clips into Pkane Deltawave, let it do its thing, then use the built-in ABX comparator to see if you can still distinguish between converters, even if levels are matched and you don't know which one is playing.

Repeat with multiple DACs into one interface if desired.

It's quite the transformative experience that may well revolutionize your professional workflow

Yes, we are all professional wasters of money.

 

[staticV3]

Yes, we are all professional wasters of money.

Or do none of the things suggested above and stay in wonderland

 

[Vicent]

If nothing else, they would be handy if you ever found the need to use a measurement microphone to calibrate a speaker setup.

Not usually, no. You can buy some tube or NOS / R-2R silliness if you insist, but there are plenty of good no-nonsense ones out there that measure well and sound just fine. Even dongle DACs.

These are a Topping DAC and headphone amp.


Beyond a certain point it's more about covering eventualities.

That fancier DAC will be good enough for preamp use. A fancier headphone amp might have lower noise for IEMs, higher output for voltage-hungry cans and more power for planars all at the same time.

Plus there's "because I can afford it". These days you can buy fairly inexpensive DACs and headphone amps that basically beat anything on the market 20 years ago.

If you just need a basic line-level source with unbalanced output and relatively modest signal level around 1 Vrms, even a standard onboard Realtek codec sounds perfectly fine (note: there may be some misimprovements that are being turned on for headphone use and would need to be deactivated manually). It won't be winning any awards for cutting-edge measured performance in terms of THD or THD+N by any stretch, but it'll be good enough for what one typically needs to run into a headphone amp or integrated amp. The best models like ALC1220 / ALC4080 even make it to preamp-grade dynamic range with 2 Vrms output.

As a rule of thumb, you typically need a whole lot less performance than you want.


Well, it does take a few more parameters than that in addition, and you can look at those in @Julian Krause's review. In any case, the E2x2 is fine. No, it doesn't have nearly as much output power as a L30 II / L50, so if you're semi-deaf and have a Hifiman HE-6 or vintage 600 ohm AKGs to drive, it may not be ideal. It also still needs an analog volume control with all is potential concerns regarding channel balance since the DAC maxes out at a dynamic range of 115 dB(A) and that's not quite preamp-grade yet.

Wow!!!...thanks a lot for such an extensive answer.
I hadn't thought that the inputs could be used to calibrate speakers, that's good.
I guess because of the translation, I didn't understand the last paragraph about the analog volume control, maybe you're referring to the non-linear increase or decrease of the volume? I don't remember that the Toping's volume control is analog, or maybe you didn't mean that.

 

[Vicent]

If nothing else, they would be handy if you ever found the need to use a measurement microphone to calibrate a speaker setup.

Not usually, no. You can buy some tube or NOS / R-2R silliness if you insist, but there are plenty of good no-nonsense ones out there that measure well and sound just fine. Even dongle DACs.

These are a Topping DAC and headphone amp.


Beyond a certain point it's more about covering eventualities.

That fancier DAC will be good enough for preamp use. A fancier headphone amp might have lower noise for IEMs, higher output for voltage-hungry cans and more power for planars all at the same time.

Plus there's "because I can afford it". These days you can buy fairly inexpensive DACs and headphone amps that basically beat anything on the market 20 years ago.

If you just need a basic line-level source with unbalanced output and relatively modest signal level around 1 Vrms, even a standard onboard Realtek codec sounds perfectly fine (note: there may be some misimprovements that are being turned on for headphone use and would need to be deactivated manually). It won't be winning any awards for cutting-edge measured performance in terms of THD or THD+N by any stretch, but it'll be good enough for what one typically needs to run into a headphone amp or integrated amp. The best models like ALC1220 / ALC4080 even make it to preamp-grade dynamic range with 2 Vrms output.

As a rule of thumb, you typically need a whole lot less performance than you want.


Well, it does take a few more parameters than that in addition, and you can look at those in @Julian Krause's review. In any case, the E2x2 is fine. No, it doesn't have nearly as much output power as a L30 II / L50, so if you're semi-deaf and have a Hifiman HE-6 or vintage 600 ohm AKGs to drive, it may not be ideal. It also still needs an analog volume control with all is potential concerns regarding channel balance since the DAC maxes out at a dynamic range of 115 dB(A) and that's not quite preamp-grade yet.

My best headphones are the Sennheiser Hd 560 S 120 Ohms.

 

[AnalogSteph]

There is no possible way in which a device could ace a thorough set of measurements, but fail at music playback, or vice versa.

Emphasis on thorough.

I guess because of the translation, I didn't understand the last paragraph about the analog volume control, maybe you're referring to the non-linear increase or decrease of the volume? I don't remember that the Toping's volume control is analog, or maybe you didn't mean that.

I am pretty sure that there's a traditional potentiometer behind the headphone volume dial that's attenuating the analog signal.

These days with DACs routinely reaching 125+ dB of dynamic range, it is entirely feasible to control the output volume in the digital domain and still have perfectly acceptable maximum output and noise levels.

My best headphones are the Sennheiser Hd 560 S 120 Ohms.

An E2x2 should drive these with ease, they need somewhat low output impedance (say 10 ohms max) but otherwise are not too demanding.

BTW, you can edit your posts for quite a while, no need to post again if you have something to add.

 

[Vicent]

It sure can.

I don't think that your capacitor example is applicable here as when measuring audio equipment, we're actually analyzing the sound that comes out of these devices, not some parameter separate from audio playback.

We do this with static tones like sine waves, highly complex signals like multitones, and with actual music using Null tests.

There is no possible way in which a device could ace a thorough set of measurements, but fail at music playback, or vice versa.

The magic attributes that you wish existed in HiFi to preserve a certain level of mystique and romance, simply do not exist.

If you think that you've perceived such attributes yourself, then it was most likely your mind playing tricks on you, which would've been prevented using appropriate controls.

That's fine thanks.