Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[ahofer]

I don't see a need to censor them

I don't think anyone does. And if they said things like "the blue lights made me feel like the sound was better", we wouldn't even have an issue with them. But that is not what they do. In fact, I can't think of a single review from the major audio rags that was ever so honest.

 

[antcollinet]

I don't need more rules and regulations from the 'Audio Police' to help protect me.

Then perhaps go where the "audio police" are not. Instead of trolling here.

 

[voodooless]

Then perhaps go where the "audio police" are not. Instead of trolling here.

That is literally nowhere. If you go with logic and reasoning to most other audio forums, you’ll be silenced or banned just as well. Same police, other laws…

 

[BDWoody]

The sound waves are important but information other than data may be gleaned through subjective reviews. If you think that's impossible and closed to the idea then you'll never know what you might have missed. If you don't like it, fine then don't listen but don't try to censor it and deny me/others from hearing it.

This isn't a place where storytime is going to get a lot of traction. Fortunately for you, pretty much every other audio site out there is happy to encourage people to jump on the anecdotal bandwagon, with ever more unlikely claims being par for the course. How can I prevent you from going wherever you want and taking whatever meaning you want from whomever wants to claim whatever crosses their mind? Go for it.

There're people here that would like to do just that. They think subjective romance is NOT ok. Trying to protect people from themselves, making bad decisions and financial harm is the agenda.

I think you are being a bit overly dramatic, but what is wrong with trying to protect people who come here and expect to be given evidence based information by pointing out when a claim is completely unsupported, and can be easily put in the 'nonsense' category? Most people here aren't engineers or scientists of any flavor. However, most of us value what can be shown, vs what can be claimed. You seem to be stuck on the 'science' part of it, but really that's all it is. Can people back up what they say, or not? If not, take it where they like that kind of thing. Here, it is going to be challenged.

Thanks for caring so much...

You're welcome, despite the backhanded delivery. You will see many of our senior members care about whether people are trying to spout nonsense (whether these people see it that way or not), because with the couple of million hits per month we get, there are many members and lurkers who may not have the depth of knowledge required to understand what they are reading, so they very helpfully will jump in to help those members and lurkers understand why it's nonsense, and how to better dismiss the chaff that is just rampant out there in audiophile land.

but I'd rather filter out the BS on my own. I don't need more rules and regulations from the 'Audio Police' to help protect me.

What rules and regulations do you feel are hampering your ability to enjoy this hobby? You seem to be the one who is telling us all how much we are missing, and what we should and shouldn't be doing. Maybe you'd be happier spending your time and effort elsewhere? You seem to be getting pretty aggravated, and no one wants that. I'm going to give you a week off from THIS THREAD, as I think we've mined the depths of this chapter about as well as we can for now, and if in a week you feel that there is something terribly important that we all missed or that needs to be said you can certainly do so then.

 

[krabapple]

Hmmm. I need to ask my Magic 8 ball for the answer to this one... wait. Need to spin it 3 times or it doesn't work. You know that!

Sorry Krabby

View attachment 396761

You joined ASR all of a month ago. You seem to be lost.

 

[VientoB]

Some people like products being pinned as 'snake oil'. To them the sound is better so it's a better product for them.! So what if they're happy with it? I see NO harm done if the customer is pleased with the product.

I think it's better when they learn and understand the truth. It saves them money and they can focus on more important things.

 

[ahofer]

How did advocating energetically for our view on this site turn into being the audio police? This is the part I'm still not understanding. We are no more policing these people's decisions than the Amish.

 

[VientoB]

How did advocating energetically for our view on this site turn into being the audio police. This is the part I'm still not understanding. We are no more policing these people's decisions than the Amish.

Some people have yet to comprehend reality of the measurements.

 

[ahofer]

Some people have yet to comprehend reality of the measurements.

It isn't even about whether our view is correct. The only plausible place we are doing anything remotely resembling 'policing' is here on ASR, and even then, they are free to join and espouse their views (politely), for the most part. Our effect on other places is purely their own reaction to our existence.

As the saying goes, you can't control others, you can only control your own response.

 

[Jim Taylor]

How did advocating energetically for our view on this site turn into being the audio police. This is the part I'm still not understanding. We are no more policing these people's decisions than the Amish.

It's a "pop psychology" tactic. First, brook no disagreements. Second, any and all alternate viewpoints are to be cast in the light of brutish behavior and totalitarian force. Third, don the mantle of the victim. Through the use of self-righteous indignation, this legitimizes any and all accusations that may be leveled, no matter how ridiculous.

It seems to work most effectively on weak minds.

Jim

 

[Blumlein 88]

It's a "pop psychology" tactic. First, brook no disagreements. Second, any and all alternate viewpoints are to be cast in the light of brutish behavior and totalitarian force. Third, don the mantle of the victim. Through the use of self-righteous indignation, this legitimizes any and all accusations that may be leveled, no matter how ridiculous.

It seems to work most effectively on weak minds.

Jim

It might work better on weak minds, but not just on weak minds. People once they've gotten into certain mind sets and beliefs naturally are armored against changing. They think those beliefs make sense or they wouldn't believe them. Even people with plenty of intelligence and strong minds are prone to this if they end up going in this direction in an area where they aren't experts and other people seeming to be experts with a long history of experience are reinforcing those beliefs. That is what I've witnessed with people I know about whom I know how intelligent and strong minded they are.

That is also why what some call policing is justified. When someone starts to interact with a area new to them the initial ideas and direction they go with those ideas sets their path. Getting the word out that lots of subjective knowledge is problematic can get people started in the better direction. And yes it is better if it is in accordance with physical reality vs something opposed to it. Is the fantasy path more fun? For some maybe, but that alone is weak justification for promoting those mistaken ideas. The path in accordance with physical reality can be fun too just different.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

It's a "pop psychology" tactic. First, brook no disagreements. Second, any and all alternate viewpoints are to be cast in the light of brutish behavior and totalitarian force. Third, don the mantle of the victim. Through the use of self-righteous indignation, this legitimizes any and all accusations that may be leveled, no matter how ridiculous.

It seems to work most effectively on weak minds.

Jim

This tactic is as transparent as most DACs.

 

[Mnyb]

But you don’t need to join here and argue in the first place ? It’s quite obvious what this site is and what it isn’t ?

It’s like Sealioning an Astronomical forum and use Astrology arguments ? Why are people apparently signing up for this reason several times every week ?

It’s like deliberately putting your hand in the fire and complaining that it hurts ?

 

[Jim Taylor]

It’s like deliberately putting your hand in the fire and complaining that it hurts ?

Yup!

Jim

 

[MaxBuck]

Yup!

View attachment 396962

Jim

Going beyond the realm of audio science and technology for a moment, staying away from such people is increasingly difficult.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Going beyond the realm of audio science and technology for a moment, staying away from such people is increasingly difficult.

True. To borrow a quote; "These are trying times."

Jim

 

[krabapple]

It's a "pop psychology" tactic. First, brook no disagreements. Second, any and all alternate viewpoints are to be cast in the light of brutish behavior and totalitarian force. Third, don the mantle of the victim. Through the use of self-righteous indignation, this legitimizes any and all accusations that may be leveled, no matter how ridiculous.

It seems to work most effectively on weak minds.

Jim

and always be sure to call the stance you disagree with a 'religion' and its holders a 'cult', no matter how well-grounded the stance is with evidence.

(and yes, I have seen this rhetorical tactic used against working scientists -- they are all 'scientism' cultists, didn't you know?)

 

[Waxx]

If you want some flame war, there is one (actually several) going on on diyaudio.com about this: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...d-different-if-they-both-measure-well.418579/

Of course I'm in the camp of option 4: a good measuring dac should have no sound at all, certainly with today's tech of cheap dacs that go way below our hearing limits on noise and distortion... But the battle against snake oil is also going on there. I don't think that is a discussion down here, but i wanted to point out the discussion there.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you want some flame war, there is one (actually several) going on on diyaudio.com about this: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...d-different-if-they-both-measure-well.418579/

Of course I'm in the camp of option 4: a good measuring dac should have no sound at all, certainly with today's tech of cheap dacs that go way below our hearing limits on noise and distortion... But the battle against snake oil is also going on there. I don't think that is a discussion down here, but i wanted to point out the discussion there.

You see all the same things. Inadequate cross talk to image properly, jitter is a problem, inter-channel time resolution, blah, blah, blah. At least there are a near equal measure of posters who have a reasonable view of the matter.

Of course on any DIY forum you have the heavy bias of once you modify something yourself you obviously expect a difference or you wouldn't have thought it worth doing. So pretty hard to not hear one unless you are careful with controlled listening.

 

[SIY]

But the battle against snake oil is also going on there.

That battle was lost there years ago. When one of the most dishonest people I know is touted as "an expert in sensory testing" and there's no pushback, when midwits like "Markw4" or whatever are taken seriously rather than mocked mercilessly... what you have is a swamp.