Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[JeremyFife]

I listen to some reviews based on listening impressions and personal opinions instead of purely science based facts.

Of course science is a very important part but I believe there's more to it. Did it ever happen to you, that a speaker measured perfectly flat but for some reason it didn't sound good to YOUR ears? Maybe a tube amp that didn't measure well but it sounded really good? I have.

Appearance has NOTHING to do with science, yet people generally do find a beautiful speaker more appealing and better sounding. Snake oil in plain view? Yea, maybe. Cheap parts inside and beautiful outside is rather deceptive. Buyer beware.

I believe there are three important evaluations to consider. #1. science. #2. how does it sound (subjectively) #3. how does it look. So, no I don't just use science as my only barometer. Guilty as charged.

What's important to you is personal to you, you can like anything you want.
My take:
'science' is way too loose a term. How about that #2 engineering is important and that measurements demonstrate whether the engineering is good. That's the objective part.
#2 do I like it ... can be as subjective as you like.

#3 do I want to communicate my subjective view of the sound to someone else, or do I want to compare one subjective impression with another... well then the subjective impression must have been made with appropriate controls or it's just personal to you and meaningless to anyone else. That's science.

 

[Jimbob54]

This post is a great example of a disingenuous, derogatory remark with the only intention is to demean and belittle. No intent of understanding anything from my post.

Read more like an attempt at clarification to me. With perhaps a soupçon of collective frustration adding a certain something to this murky broth you're cooking up .

 

[Jim Taylor]

This post is a great example of a disingenuous, derogatory remark with the only intention is to demean and belittle. No intent of understanding anything from my post. Strawman is right here. THIS attitude puts a fine point on the problem here.

Yes ahofer, it is very fascinating indeed!!

@ahofer

About 16 pages ago, I posted this link for your benefit:

This video explains the nature of - and need for - "controls" in making comparisons. Did you watch it?

Jim

 

[Tinker]

I think you misunderstand the difference, which has been pointed out to you before. Subjective means personal, specific to an individual, but it doesn't have to mean biased or uncontrolled.

If you keep doubling down on "my uncontrolled hearing is better than all your instruments", then you are the one belittling and demeaning others here. More than that, you are ignoring some very solid science with nothing to support you doing so.

What are you talking about? I never said or suggested any such thing and you quote me saying that??? Yet I'm the one who doesn't understand? In fact, I just finished posting the exact opposite. "I believe there are three important evaluations to consider. #1. science."

Here's another one for you ahofer. A really fascinating one from pkane even with a fantasy quote.

@ahofer 3) Doubling down with pedantry and rationalization, provoking more testy reactions.

 

[pkane]

What are you talking about? I never said or suggested any such thing and you quote me saying that??? Yet I'm the one who doesn't understand? In fact, I just finished posting the exact opposite. "I believe there are three important evaluations to consider. #1. science."

Here's another one for you ahofer. A really fascinating one from pkane even with a fantasy quote.

And I answered your "I believe..." post. Others have answered you multiple times, going back many pages. But you keep insisting that you understand while at the same time, doubling down on the ignorance of uncontrolled testing. Either you don't understand, are disingenuous, or a troll. Possibly all three? Or are you lost and wound up here by accident?

Of course science is a very important part but I believe there's more to it.

Belief is fantasy. Try knowing and understanding, instead.

 

[Demmers]

I'm fascinated as to what the final conclusion to this thread is going to be lol!
Here's my two-cents. What follows is the opinion of a made-up person: "I enjoy listening to the music I like, on the equipment I use. The DAC I use for example, according to tests, produces its own sound signature. But for whatever reason, regardless, I still enjoy what I hear, so I continue to use it".
Me personally, I use the Topping D10s DAC, so no alterations to the sound signature, just transparency, and I enjoy listening to music on my equipment too. But here's my response to the hypothetical statement I just made: "Good for you, i'm glad you're happy too, because isn't listening to music great?!"

 

[ahofer]

I'd argue there's plenty of science behind sighted bias. It's just woefully under-attributed in the trade. I think the typical audiophile (not you) is embarrassed to admit the appeal lies outside of the engineering, or the signal, whereas expensive watch enthusiasts will freely admit their kilobuck timepieces aren't more accurate or convenient.

I just want to repeat the quote with context. I don’t think there’s any disagreement here with @pkane, at least that I can see. He’s more than aware that sighted bias is the subject of a fair amount of scientific investigation, and that it is woefully under-attributed as a preference-driver by (it would appear) @Tinker and others.

 

[krabapple]

It appears you see yourself as the 'Audio police'. ASR does a great job of exposing it. However, not everyone wants to listen.

Even if they come here, they don't 'have to listen'. And if they don't come here, why would they care what we say?

Yes, Police. Enforcing the Law of the land and protecting people from snake oil. It's OK, not a problem. You should do that but just be a little nicer about it.

So, we share the same goal, to improve audio. However, I am a little more flexible when it comes to subjective listening options. For that I'm chastised. I always listen closely to Amirs opinion but I also listen to completely subjective opinions from other reviewers as well. Unthinkable!

Why am I here? I was asked a day ago insinuating my intentions were evil. Lots of suggested terms of infidelity. A traitor was loose in the forum! You don't belong. He's not one of us!! Like a Monty Python skit.

I'm asking now too because all you seem to be doing is spouting banalities, and here, imagining yourself a role as truth teller in some silly drama.

The main reason I'm here is because ASR is hands down the best science based technical reviews available on the internet. Amir does an incredible service for the audio crowd. I wouldn't buy a product without looking here first.

Gee, that's swell. So, you're made of tougher stuff than your green pen friend, you think?

 

[krabapple]

I'm fascinated as to what the final conclusion to this thread is going to be lol!

Can you point me to an ASR thread where there is a 'final conclusion' as opposed to it simply being shut down for being tediously repetitive?

 

[Old_School_Brad]

Can you point me to an ASR thread where there is a 'final conclusion' as opposed to it simply being shut down for being tediously repetitive?

Most threads reach a final conclusion within the first two pages, after which the free-for-all skirmishes begin.

The most satisfying threads are when the OP has a technical issue, the hive mind solves it, the OP expresses their thanks, and the thread is archived for others on the web who are searching for the same solution.

 

[antcollinet]

Did it ever happen to you, that a speaker measured perfectly flat but for some reason it didn't sound good to YOUR ears? Maybe a tube amp that didn't measure well but it sounded really good? I have.

Appearance has NOTHING to do with science, yet people generally do find a beautiful speaker more appealing and better sounding. Snake oil in plain view? Yea, maybe. Cheap parts inside and beautiful outside is rather deceptive. Buyer beware.

First - no speaker measures perfectly flat both on and off axis.

Speakers that measure perfectly flat anechoically will not measure so when in a room. Speaker sound is far more about speaker room interaction than it is about perfect speaker measurements. The only point is you need a well measuring speaker to sound good in a good and well treated and/or corrected room.

All the other stuff can be (and usually is) the result of perceptive bias, rather than the soundwaves reaching your ears - which is where basic listening controls come in. And the problem with relying on bias to get the sound you want is it is unreliable and inconsisitent. It can vary from hour to hour based on how you feel, how comfortable you are, state of imbibement etc etc. It also tends to fade over time as the novelty of the new/beautiful component wears off, or as your listening changes from “listening to how a new component sounds” to “listening to music as normal”

 

[DSJR]

To summarize,
A 300 dollar multibit Schiit dac didn’t cause, fixed the fatigue.
A more expensive DS dac caused fatigue. I sold it and got some cash back.
I didn't get swindled by some snake oil peddler and gave him ten thousand dollars for some R2R magic dac because soundstage extended from sky to the moon or something.
My wallet is happy. I found my end game dac for 300 dollars. Everything's well in life again.

Late question and things may have moved on,, but are you sure it's not the amp/speaker issues/room causing fatigue with so-called'accurate' dacs?

I mean and apologies for going off on a tangent, I fullt 'get' what many audiophiles prefer about the different presentation of the vinyl format, but in my case it's from the opposite end, me trying to liven up and have more 'sparkle' from my vinyl rig rather than 'toning down' the digital (and somewhere between, my FM tuner) to match the slightly 'gentler' vinyl presentation.

 

[Haskil]

This isn’t even about the a forum, nor ASR in particular. It’s about what the industry does to spread misinformation, leading to literal brainwashing of customers into thinking they need all kinds of nonsense to listen to good audio. It’s absurd to think that people need this fantasy world to enjoy good audio. It’s just another trap the industry laid out to perpetuate their BS, and people also fall right into it. The point being: this state of mind is not organic.

You can say people should be aware of the BS, but if no one is prepared to expose it, people can’t find out either. So this is where ASR comes in. We drag the horses to the water. They need to figure out for themselves if it is save to drink…

There you have it, it's not even a question of a crusade that the brave knights of ASR would lead, but of an alternative source of information from which anyone who finds it on the internet, and it is increasingly easy to find it. find, can come and find out. And this fair and reliable alternative source of information is an island in an ocean of various and varied lies that brainwash music lovers.
Reason why ASR is criticized, called into question on various forums or blogs which are dominated by of fanatic subjectivists who also regularly register on ASR to troll or question the very foundations of this testing site, which opens discussions whose educational value is immense because it hinders the golden words of the gurus... ASR is a big stone in their shoe.

So yes there is no perceptible difference between two DACs whose performance all measures say puts their characteristics beyond the reach of our ears. And this regardless of the price of the two DACs compared.

 

[Sal1950]

This isn’t even about the a forum, nor ASR in particular. It’s about what the industry does to spread misinformation, leading to literal brainwashing of customers into thinking they need all kinds of nonsense to listen to good audio. It’s absurd to think that people need this fantasy world to enjoy good audio. It’s just another trap the industry laid out to perpetuate their BS, and people also fall right into it. The point being: this state of mind is not organic.

You can say people should be aware of the BS, but if no one is prepared to expose it, people can’t find out either. So this is where ASR comes in. We drag the horses to the water. They need to figure out for themselves if it is save to drink…

AMEN, That's the issues I've fought here since the inception of ASR in 2016.
The BS and flat out lies spread by the print and web based "high end audio" media has turned the passion of the pursuit of SOTA High Fidelity into a circus I'm almost ashamed to be part of it. It's become all about the profits to be made by the little boys club of snake-oil pushers, the media, their advertisers, and the companies selling $10,000+++ cables, $100,000 components and analog sources such as turntables and reel to reel tape. To read these media sources today you have to believe if your not spending $100,000+ on a power amp that weights hundreds of pounds you have no chance of hearing the very best todays audio technology can offer. It's become a land where "sounds good to me" rules the day, since no one can ever debate what sounds good to you personally, the numbers and reality be damned.

 

[pkane]

Can you point me to an ASR thread where there is a 'final conclusion' as opposed to it simply being shut down for being tediously repetitive?

This particular thread will go on until there are no more people willing to accept beliefs and faulty perceptions over logic and science. In other words, until the Sun runs out of fuel and becomes a red giant, or the universe experiences a heat death.

 

[ahofer]

In fairness, this is one of two threads where it is allowed to go on ad nauseam (the other being the strangely named “measurements - everything or nothing” thread). When it happens elsewhere it gets moved to one of these two collectors.

 

[Sal1950]

This particular thread will go on until there are no more people willing to accept beliefs and faulty perceptions over logic and science. In other words, until the Sun runs out of fuel and becomes a red giant, or the universe experiences a heat death.

Very true, but the problem lays that if the tread gets closed, someone will start a new one soon. LOL
We buy them books, send them to school, and what do they do?
Eat the teacher.

 

[NTTY]

I listen to some reviews based on listening impressions and personal opinions instead of purely science based facts.

So you listen to others’ opinions and impressions instead of facts?
This is not reasonable, in audio and anywhere else.
Trust but verify.

 

[voodooless]

Eat the teacher.

We should draw some inspiration from this:

 

[voodooless]

This is not reasonable, in audio and anywhere else.

It’s classic: accept the science when it aligns with one’s perception, and if not, one simply ignores it and claim that there must be something that wasn’t discovered or hasn’t been measured yet. I call it “supermarket science”.