Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Tinker]

I wonder how much time, effort, and energy could be saved if we required posters to take and post in their signature their ability to hear frequencies, distortion, noise, and volume?

Test forum members hearing like you test equipment. I like it! Could be displayed in a graph for quick reference. Not sure how it saves time and energy but...

 

[Mnyb]

NOS mode is often without proper recocnstruction filter too . You listen too some half finishen intermediate signal .
Reconstruction is the key word the DA process is not complete without the filter .

 

[IPunchCholla]

Test forum members hearing like you test equipment. I like it! Could be displayed in a graph for quick reference. Not sure how it saves time and energy but...

Well, people claiming audibility of distortion -120db below the fundamental… we just look at the test and could see.

But really, for me, it was eye opening just how limited my hearing was. And it is basically right at the median.

 

[Brian Hall]

What you got there is a steaming pile of recycled bullshit designed to enstupidate the audience enough that money may be extracted. R2R can make a perfectly fine DAC (but doesn't, usually), but it is far harder, more expensive, and in no way superior to more modern, less expensive, and more stable methods. That said, although they're generally technically inferior to modern engineered DACs, they're still good enough that you won't hear any of the flaws.

I would give more likes if I could for the use of "enstupidate". Perfect word to describe what is going on.

 

[SIY]

I would give more likes if I could for the use of "enstupidate". Perfect word to describe what is going on.

I went back to their site to see if the whole thing was like this. Holy crap, it gets even worse. I feel like I need to take a long shower after wallowing in this morass of dishonesty.

The concept of negative feedback loop and its devastating effect on music can be found here. Music is defined by a strict relationship between signal and time. If the musical signal is altered relative to its time domain then one hardly can call the resulting sound “music” by the definition. Any shift in relationship between signal and its time domain is called phase (time) /signal amplitude distortion (or jitter in digital domain). The main cause for phase distortion is the deliberate use of digital filtering, higher order filters and by negative feedback loop manipulation in order to achieve better linearity. In terms of distortion, Delta Sigma (DS) DAC designs distort musical information at all times unlike with NOS R2R. That type of distortion (measurable or not) is made up by the noise and artifacts as DS DAC produces completely new samples (not a part of the original recording) by the means of oversampling and the negative feedback applied to demodulate (noise shaping and filtering) an over sampled signal. The effect of phase to amplitude distortion is evident if one compared class- A amplification with a negative feedback (NFB) and without. The sound is more linear with NFB applied and everything sounds sort of nice but in the same time it all sounds the same, lacks natural coherence, harmonics and dynamics, effectively fails to involve one emotionally. And that is the area where Delta Sigma DACs designs fail, really.

 

[oleg87]

Is there another industry so godforsaken that it is perfectly normal and acceptable to read technical "whitepapers" that are just wall-to-wall lies and misinformation?

 

[ahofer]

“If the musical signal is altered relative to its time domain then one hardly can call the resulting sound “music” by the definition.”

Heh.

 

[oleg87]

So perfect, so musical, so unaltered

 

[DonH56]

I went back to their site to see if the whole thing was like this. Holy crap, it gets even worse. I feel like I need to take a long shower after wallowing in this morass of dishonesty.

Wow, unbelievably divorced from reality. Or maybe not so unbelievable... The (a) problem is hucksters like that throw around a bunch of terms to make it sound good to those users with no technical understanding, then those same users will debate you to the death with the same hogwash.

 

[ahofer]

Maybe the experts here should set up a thread to compile “marketing white papers that qualify as disinformation”. I’d enjoy it.

 

[DonH56]

View attachment 393681
So perfect, so musical, so unaltered

Exactly the kind of b.s. they would present. Try again, after the required reconstruction filter, that most of the "NOS R2R" crowd ignore.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Maybe the experts here should set up a thread to compile “marketing white papers that qualify as disinformation”. I’d enjoy it.

Brandolini's law aka the bullshit asymmetry principle. It takes an order of magnitude more energy to refute BS as it does to produce BS.

 

[DonH56]

Brandolini's law aka the bullshit asymmetry principle. It takes an order of magnitude more energy to refute BS as it does to produce BS.

I estimate you are off by at least one if not more orders of magnitude. But I have not measured it, nor wish to.

 

[solderdude]

Test forum members hearing like you test equipment. I like it! Could be displayed in a graph for quick reference. Not sure how it saves time and energy but...

Training is more important than testing.

Welcome to How to Listen!

Overview How to Listen is a desktop software application developed by the Harman Internationa l R&D group for the purpose of training an...

harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com

Only costs you time and brings more clarity than a visit to a doctor that only tests bottom hearing limits at a few frequencies that are important for speech.

 

[Mnyb]

I went back to their site to see if the whole thing was like this. Holy crap, it gets even worse. I feel like I need to take a long shower after wallowing in this morass of dishonesty.

Fascinating how a simple feedback loop , some pcb traces and resistors ( and possibly something else if fancy ) can recognise music and destroy only that ?

Feedback in the form of P , PI or PID controllers are the staple of industrial control everywhere , your heat, your water everything around you works with feedback .

The basic principle is extremely simple you subtract output from input an creates an error signal throw that back into to loop together with the input at the desired polarity

 

[SIY]

The basic principle is extremely simple you subtract output from input an creates an error signal throw that back into to loop together with the input at the desired polarity

This leaves a lot of room for FUD.

 

[AudioSceptic]

When DACs go bad! View attachment 393572

Is that the worst ever? It's close to the classic "Point One" level, which was a milestone for amplifiers many decades ago.

 

[Jimbob54]

Is that the worst ever? It's close to the classic "Point One" level, which was a milestone for amplifiers many decades ago.

One of for sure. Some stinkers in the list .

 

[AudioSceptic]

No. I never suggested that.

Sorry if I misread what you said, but how often do we find DACs that measure badly enough for that to be audible?

 

[AudioSceptic]

One of for sure. Some stinkers in the list .

Yes, I found the PS Audio, which was outrageously priced in addition to its other sins.